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-   -   Help me select a compact rifle (http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=786294)

flood 05-20-2008 02:54 AM

Help me select a compact rifle
 
Looking for a compact rifle that uses a pistol caliber, preferably 9mm. Small enough to carry in a briefcase or backpack, high capacity mag is a plus. Also, accurate to 100yards but still usable at short range. Folding/collapsible stock to shoot from the shoulder.

Here are a few I've looked at so far...

Kel-Tec Sub-2000
[img]http://x025.uploaderx.net/x/pix3599242078.jpg[/img]
Comes in 9mm and is cheap, but I haven't heard the greatest things about it's reliability and accuracy, nor would it be easy to use in close quarters.

Olympic Arms AR-15 pistol
[img]http://x026.uploaderx.net/x/OA93_CPD.JPG[/img] [img]http://x026.uploaderx.net/x/Oa-93-full.jpg[/img]
In 9mm form, the standard mag holds 32 rounds. Saw it at a gun show and thought it was way :cool:. I want one! I'd prefer one with a short/telescoping shoulder stock.
I did some reading on the brand and it sounds like it's at the bottom of the list of AR-15 manufacturers.

Rock River AR-15 pistol
[img]http://x025.uploaderx.net/x/pularp.gif[/img]
Everything the Oly Arms is, but from a better manufacturer. I may end up getting one of these.

Ruger Mini-14
[IMG]http://x026.uploaderx.net/x/mini14_01l.jpg[/IMG]
A little bigger than I'm looking for and doesn't come in 9mm, but the folding stock is pretty cool.

Any others I should be looking at? Can you guys link me to compact or folding (do they even make one?) stocks for the AR15?
Also, does the HK-416 come in pistol form like the AR-15 examples above?

flood 05-20-2008 03:14 AM

Just found this too...
Kel-Tec SU-16D
[img]http://x026.uploaderx.net/x/keltec_su-16_d9.jpg[/img]
Does it all, but not in 9mm. I guess I could do .223 instead.

goatmouf 05-20-2008 05:04 AM

Take a look at the Century arms new AK variant. It's a Bullpup. I saw one at a gun show last weekend and now I'm thinking bout getting one.

[url]http://www.buymilsurp.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4111[/url]

This is the first website google popped up for it. I cant find it on their website cus their website sucks balls.

It's no 9mm though.

monkey-boy 05-20-2008 09:57 AM

[IMG]http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/images2/92Takedown.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfTaylors92Collection.tpl"]http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfTaylors92Collection.tpl[/URL]

Firehawk0220 05-20-2008 10:09 AM

[QUOTE=flood;22715486]Any others I should be looking at? Can you guys link me to compact or folding (do they even make one?) stocks for the AR15?
Also, does the HK-416 come in pistol form like the AR-15 examples above?[/QUOTE]

When it comes to AR pistols any type of stock is not an option. Any AR with a fixed or collapsable stock that has less than a 16" barrel is considered an short barrelled rifle (SBR) under Federal law. Which means you need to fill out ATF forms and pay $200 for a tax stamp allowing you to own one. You seem to be confusing pistols with carbines. There are specific rules for each. The Kel-Tec SU-16D is probably a carbine under Federal law in the United States. However I'm not even sure if that particular model is legal here. The Olympic Arms and Rock River Arms AR-15 pistols you showed in your post are actually pistols under the law. Attaching a vertical foregrip or a stock changes them to SBR's according to Federal Law. I know its' stupid but that's the way it is here.

As far as I know the H&K416 isn't legal for civilian sales in the United States. I know there is a civilian legal version of it recently approved in Germany, but not here.

(If you do not live in the United States then disregard my post.)

Control 05-20-2008 11:07 AM

May I ask why you are looking to use pistol calibers in the first place?

I've really wanted to try the Keltec Sub-2000 or SU-16, but can't offer any input on them except initial reliability with that company as a whole seems to be somewhat hit or miss. I have heard they will stand by their products and will correct any problems, though. For the price, concealability, and lightness, I am still looking at getting one or two P3ATs.

I have personally shot a Bushmaster AR-15 pistol, and they're great. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_defense_recreation_index.asp[/url] Very controllable, no kick at all despite the light weight. I see they also make a 9mm pistol on that page.

You may also consider buying a 11.5" barrel for an AR (~$170) if you have one already or can get one at a reasonable cost. With a telescoping or folding stock that may be compact enough for your needs.

Lebowski 05-20-2008 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=Control;22716285]May I ask why you are looking to use pistol calibers in the first place?

I've really wanted to try the Keltec Sub-2000 or SU-16, but can't offer any input on them except initial reliability with that company as a whole seems to be somewhat hit or miss. I have heard they will stand by their products and will correct any problems, though. For the price, concealability, and lightness, I am still looking at getting one or two P3ATs.

I have personally shot a Bushmaster AR-15 pistol, and they're great. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_defense_recreation_index.asp[/url] Very controllable, no kick at all despite the light weight. I see they also make a 9mm pistol on that page.

You may also consider buying a 11.5" barrel for an AR (~$170) if you have one already or can get one at a reasonable cost. With a telescoping or folding stock that may be compact enough for your needs.[/QUOTE]
Not in the United States you aren't.*




*unless you jump through hoops and fill out all the required paper work, send your $200 and wait for the ATF to rubber stamp it.

monkey-boy 05-20-2008 12:54 PM

[QUOTE=Lebowski;22716714]Not in the United States you aren't.*




*unless you jump through hoops and fill out all the required paper work, send your $200 and wait for the ATF to rubber stamp it.[/QUOTE]

register it as a pistol

*problem solved ;)

TommyTheCat 05-20-2008 01:08 PM

[QUOTE=goatmouf;22715635]Take a look at the Century arms new AK variant. It's a Bullpup. I saw one at a gun show last weekend and now I'm thinking bout getting one.

[url]http://www.buymilsurp.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4111[/url]

This is the first website google popped up for it. I cant find it on their website cus their website sucks balls.

It's no 9mm though.[/QUOTE]

I have heard the trigger is shit on the bullpups

I want a small carbine as well and I think I found it

A Clone of the Romanian AIMR carbine(their answer to Krinks). Get a Century "Draco" Pistol, send it to a builder, have em replace the rear trunnion and slap on a Romanian Wire side folder. Of course pay for the tax stamp as well.
[img]http://x025.uploaderx.net/x/AIM_carbine-1.jpg[/img]

Firehawk0220 05-20-2008 01:21 PM

[QUOTE=monkey-boy;22716724]register it as a pistol

*problem solved ;)[/QUOTE]

I don't believe you can attach folding or collapsable stocks to AR-15's classified as pistols in the US. Doing so changes the weapons classification from pistol to SBR. Even attaching a vertical foregrip to an AR pistol changes its' classification.

goatmouf 05-20-2008 04:44 PM

[QUOTE=TommyTheCat;22716766]I have heard the trigger is shit on the bullpups

I want a small carbine as well and I think I found it

A Clone of the Romanian AIMR carbine(their answer to Krinks). Get a Century "Draco" Pistol, send it to a builder, have em replace the rear trunnion and slap on a Romanian Wire side folder. Of course pay for the tax stamp as well.
[img]http://x025.uploaderx.net/x/AIM_carbine-1.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

prety much the same thing as the Bullpup but with the trigger system repositioned.

McMahan 05-20-2008 04:58 PM

What about a PS90? Very compact, holds 50 rounds, ammo is interchangeable with the 5-7 pistol. If you go the SBR route it would be hard to find a smaller package with that amount of firepower.

Control 05-20-2008 07:00 PM

So you're pretty much looking for either an SMG or something between that and an assault rifle. Seems like there aren't too many options built and available for purchase (judging by the junior ATF agents we have jumping on this thread, I'm guessing the US government feels quite threatened by this particular breed of weapon) however if you are willing to do a little modification or assembly on your part I think your horizons widen considerably.

I saw many 'pistol' style AKs at the gun show this weekend, able to be registered as such, and hopefully you could throw a skeletonized folding stock on with minimum effort. Also in the AK line is the [url=http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/akru/aks74u.html]AKS-74U carbine[/url], of which you can apparently build a semi-auto version of with a parts kit. This thing has a 8 inch barrel and folding stock, which probably makes it smaller than a Commando-esque AR-15.

An Uzi 'pistol' might also be a consideration, if you like that look.

BPJ 05-20-2008 07:49 PM

Doesn't matter if he buys it or builds it. If it starts life as a pistol and has a shorter than 16" barrel he can't put a stock on it without registering it as an SBR.

monkey-boy 05-20-2008 08:11 PM

[QUOTE=BPJ;22718276]Doesn't matter if he buys it or builds it. If it starts life as a pistol and has a shorter than 16" barrel he can't put a stock on it without registering it as an SBR.[COLOR="Teal"]*[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Teal"]*[/COLOR]unless its a curio or relic such as a german luger, C-96, browing hi-power, radom, etc,etc.

in other words there are several ways around that. Basicly if its WW 1, 2 ( or earlier ) era pistol with a shoulder lug on it it PERFECTLY legal to put the matching stock rig on it and have fun ;)


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