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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
ok, i can see the conflict of interest there. itd be kind of like if people who were on welfare were allowed to vote whether to keep it or not

OH WAIT

democracy and republicanism are both meant to serve the interests of the majority of society. thats how they function. excluding any segment of the population on issues that affect them is contrary to the nature of both of our country's systems.

youre gonna have to explain this pre-trial credit stuff. i dont think we have anything like that here in the u.s.

how much popularity do these far left candidates who think that a slap on the wrist is literally all thats required have exactly? it seems like you might be citing wackjobs as serious contenders.

Welfare is a different case because it's not explicitly detrimental to society and, again, losing the right to vote is a part of the punishment for potentially serious crime. Welfare recipients are not criminals. Well, not always.

The pre trial credit was introduced because lawmakers in Canada decided that being held in custody while awaiting trial results in "extra difficult" mental anguish, or something stupid like that. It's customary to give you 2 to 1 or sometimes 3 to 1 credit for time served before trial, because lord forbid a terrorist/potential mass murderer (most in the Toronto 18 are pleading guilty now) have his feelings hurt. The current House of Commons passed a bill to limit it to 1 to 1 after people complained terrorists were being let off too early (well yeah, fuck), but the stupid useless tards in the GOVERNMENT APPOINTED PERMANENT Canadian Senate nerfed the bill to 1.5 to 1, because they're a bunch of pussies representing administrations from upwards 30 years ago when they were appointed (the Canadian senate is nothing like the American one, which actually does something).

Far left candidates have a huge following in Canada. Look up the New Democratic Party, and their leader "Taliban" Jack Layton. Ol' Jack isn't the brightest crayon in the box, and I don't say that because I don't agree with him, I say that because the man is too emotional and doesn't think before he's speaking (the Shane Doan controversey is a great, and hilarious, example of that). He earned the nickname "Taliban Jack" for a reason. Here's a brilliant example of Jack Layton's retardation:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


You would never see an American politician say that, not even the left wing ones. There's more examples of that, just look. Hell, read their platform, it will make you cry.

And this man's party won over 17% of the popular vote in the last election, and at one point was challenging for official opposition status in the polls.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:59 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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chuckybob
Mario raped Peach in her fuzzy spot while twisting and twirling his mustache sexylike
 
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canada is wacked

god, i thought trailer park boys was just exagerating about criminals in general, i had no idea that was political commentary
Old 02-17-2010, 05:08 PM chuckybob is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
canada is wacked

god, i thought trailer park boys was just exagerating about criminals in general, i had no idea that was political commentary

You have no idea. Bear in mind too, that guy has almost 18% of the popular vote. The winning party had just over 36% of the popular vote, and there are FIVE parties (not two) in Canada that are popular enough to participate in the official national debates. That's five parties with a campaign war chest, and his is the third most popular. At one point a few months ago, polls were showing Jack Layton's NDP to be in second overall in the popular vote. Yep, Canadians seem to want to put a guy in power who is willing to put sensitive national security documents in the public view. Now do you see why I don't mind it when felons can't vote, particularly in a country with laws as stupid as Canada's?

Seriously, search more Jack Layton quotes. Your jaw will drop with the stupid things he says in the Canadian parliament that Canadian lefties eat up like the word of God. The guy's an idiot, but he sucks union cock like no one else in the world so he gets a lot of support from the far left and people like the Canadian Auto Workers union who like getting paid $35/hour with abnormally long vacation times and unmatched benefits to do fuck all and then complain when GM wants to shut down a truck plant because they're not selling any trucks.

Bear in mind too, even the Conservative Party of Canada is more close to the Democrats than the Republicans. Canada does not have "conservatives" by American standards.

And yes, Trailer Park Boys is fucking HILARIOUS!
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:08 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You respond to my post saying you don't need to make a moral argument with a moral platitude?

Seriously, if you engage your brain for a second it's not hard to see how routing government money to unrepentant drug users is bad for society in a concrete way. That makes it not a moral judgement. Give people access to treatment programs, whatever, but don't just send my tax money to junkies so they can afford to do smack while not working.

there is no other argument than a moral one about picking and choosing which people in a society are worthy of help from others and which ones are not.

you proved my point.
Old 02-17-2010, 11:47 PM Xayd is offline  
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CommiePunk
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Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
there is no other argument than a moral one about picking and choosing which people in a society are worthy of help from others and which ones are not.

you proved my point.

yes there is. If someone is smoking crack and stealing on a daily basis and they aren't smart enough to check themselves into a rehab facility, they are a drain on society and have absolutely no value. They deserve nothing and if anything, owe a debt to society for being a piece of shit.
Old 02-18-2010, 04:13 AM CommiePunk is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
there is no other argument than a moral one about picking and choosing which people in a society are worthy of help from others and which ones are not.

you proved my point.

Financing a heroin habit does not help the user, sorry.
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:35 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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there is no other argument than a moral one about picking and choosing which people in a society are worthy of help from others and which ones are not.

you proved my point.

That's complete crap.

I am saying they should be given help, but only help that's suitable for their situation. They should be able to go to rehab. Handing them money without restriction only enables their drug habit, which doesn't help them in the long run and doesn't help society. That's not a moral judgement.

Even on a personal level, I would not give money to a friend or family member who was abusing drugs (or alcohol, for that matter) and wasn't seeking treatment. Giving them money just let them avoid seeking real help and sink deeper into the addiction. I've actually been there, seen people destroy their lives with drugs and alcohol. The financial "help" they get from family actually makes the problem worse in the long run.
Old 02-18-2010, 09:02 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by growler View Post
for a short period of time in my life my family was forced to be on foodstamps and each month my mom and I would have to travel on down to the welfare center to pick them up and what we saw there each and every time made me hate the world around us

every single scumbag that was down there had the newest cellphones, the nicest sneakers and clothes, newest handheld videogame systems, and they were all decked out in gold jewelry

fortunately we were only had them for 3-4 months while my mom was out on disability but even years later when I worked registers at a grocery store I would see these same dirtbags come in and buy their shrimp, steaks, lobsters and whatever else with their foodstamps and use their stacks of real cash to buy the necessary shit like milk or cereal for their kids

I personally think something has to change with this fucking system I know so many people barely getting by who actually have jobs and are decent members of society getting fucked over by the fucking scum that are ripping off these programs

lmao shut the fuck up. You have no idea what these peoples family/job/material situation is like beyond your stupid ass superficial stereotypes. I guess everyone should be dressed in rags and eating lentil soup every night or otherwise not qualify for government assistance.
Old 02-20-2010, 01:36 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
I'm all in favor giving them help to get them off drugs, like access to treatment programs. I am not in favor of handing them cash (or food stamps, which are basically just proxy cash) without any condition that requires them to do SOMETHING productive to get themselves off the drugs and at least work towards becoming a productive member of society. I don't see any reason why my tax money should go to buy food or pay rent for a drug user who makes no attempt to stop using drugs (assuming help is available) and can't hold down a job to pay for his habit. You're basically enabling behavior that hurts society. That's not a moral judgement.
You're ignoring what happens if those people stop getting assistance. Do they just disappear or reform themselves? Probably not. They just get more desperate. They commit crimes, prostitute themselves, whatever it takes. If they have anyone who's dependent on them, even in their poorly functioning state, that person is probably fucked too now, whether it's a elderly person or a kid. They also have a good chance of ending up in jail or the ER room which would probably cost more than their foodstamps would for a long time. It's not clear cut at all whether simply cutting people off from foodstamps does anything to improve societys lot, there's no utilitarian metric that's decisive either way.

It's also quite subjective as to what drug addiction consists of. Is it drinking 4 nights a week? Smoking weed every other day? Buying food that's drowned in sugar? How much are the drug tests going to cost vs just paying for the food stamps?
Old 02-20-2010, 01:49 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Intuitiv
 
Even a cheap 5 panel drug test would help. It is quick, and would filter out some trash. Sure the smarter people would dillute and take B12, but this would cut out the straight up addicts. They cost about 5 bucks a peice.

http://www.meditests.com/mulurtesopco.html
Old 02-20-2010, 03:26 PM Intuitiv is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
You're ignoring what happens if those people stop getting assistance. Do they just disappear or reform themselves? Probably not. They just get more desperate. They commit crimes, prostitute themselves, whatever it takes. If they have anyone who's dependent on them, even in their poorly functioning state, that person is probably fucked too now, whether it's a elderly person or a kid. They also have a good chance of ending up in jail or the ER room which would probably cost more than their foodstamps would for a long time. It's not clear cut at all whether simply cutting people off from foodstamps does anything to improve societys lot, there's no utilitarian metric that's decisive either way.
It's certainly up for debate whether or not it would actually help society or not, but I think it's fairly clear that you can have the discussion without using a morality based framework.

Personally I think you have to pull the rug out from under an addict to force them to seek help. If that ends up temporarily hurting people who are dependent on them, well, those people are going to be suffering basically indefinably while their "provider" (read: welfare source) is still using.

Quote:
It's also quite subjective as to what drug addiction consists of. Is it drinking 4 nights a week? Smoking weed every other day? Buying food that's drowned in sugar?
I think we could reasonably restrict it to hard drugs like heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. Marijuana usage isn't prone to wrecking lives, you can't really test for alcohol usage unless they show up drunk and it's legal anyway. You can suck down sugar by the truckload and still be a functioning member of society, so that doesn't really fit.

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How much are the drug tests going to cost vs just paying for the food stamps?
I don't know. Brought that question up myself earlier.
Old 02-20-2010, 03:33 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Abu-mk2
 
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its like feeding birds in the park. it feels nice, but you shouldn't do it
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:44 PM Abu-mk2 is offline  
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Originally Posted by Abu-mk2 View Post
its like feeding birds in the park. it feels nice, but you shouldn't do it
Everything you say is astoundingly retarded
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:08 PM Golf(e) is offline  
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TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
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Everything you say is astoundingly retarded

Actually he is astoundingly right. You feed the birds and more come until there are so many of them that everything is covered in pigeon shit.

Which is why San Fransisco had to scale back it's feed the homeless in the parks operations.
Bums from the entire nation were migrating there, they started aggressively panhandling and harassing the productive members of society and shitting and pissing openly in public on the sidewalks wherever they happened to be.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:35 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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