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crumbaker
 
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The ethics of state schools and sports

Let me preface this by saying I don't really like watching sports at all. You would think I would be the last person to care about this sort of thing, but a recent incident at my local college happened to just piss me off enough to write about it.

Some of the players of the Ohio State Buckeyes are being suspended for trading autographs for tattoos. Again I could care less about the team or the well being of their players, but I think it brings up a much larger issue.

How can you have a situation where a college gets money from our taxes, gets money from ticket sales, money from tuition, and money from merchandise, but the kids that put the school in the limelight, and risk their health, can't make a penny, because that would be unethical.

Let me tell you what's unethical, every fucking thing about this situation. I would be all for them not allowing the kids to make money if they charged a reasonable amount to go to the school, if they made no money from merchandise, and most of all if they didn't receive any tax money from the government.

Having your cake and eating it too? I realize it's not the college itself making the decision to suspend the players, but that's not the point. Personally I think a college should be the last place to host any sort of sporting event, increased revenue or not. You don't learn shit from playing with a ball.

Thoughts?
Old 01-06-2011, 01:18 AM crumbaker is offline  
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Bukkakeboy
 
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its eating your cake, and having it too.

also, autographs for tattoos?

I also think you fail to understand that a school != a business.

The money used to pay students (and they do pay for some activities like teachers assistant etc) would prolly go mainly out of their research fund.

And it would be retarded to give beer money to some student rather then using it on research.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:23 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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crumbaker
 
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its eating your cake, and having it too.

also, autographs for tattoos?

I also think you fail to understand that a school != a business.

The money used to pay students (and they do pay for some activities like teachers assistant etc) would prolly go mainly out of their research fund.

And it would be retarded to give beer money to some student rather then using it on research.

This is about state schools not private ones, big difference, private ones can do whatever they want in my eyes.

You're making assumptions about where the money goes that we have no idea is true or not. What about the salaries of professors that spend damn near no time teaching the kids but let there assistants do all the work? Give some of that money to the players. That really wasn't my point though, my point is that I think they should be able to make money anyway they damn well please, especially when they are allowing the school to put them in significant physical harm.

Or better yet make the school about learning and not people playing with a fucking ball.
Old 01-06-2011, 11:35 AM crumbaker is offline  
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joemama
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All of the suspended players are on scholarship...meaning their tuition is paid for by the school. Having said that, being an athlete at the college level means that you won't have any time for a part-time job unless you plan on neglecting your schoolwork completely. I personally think that in addition to the scholarship..players in good standing should be given a small allowance each month to cover incidentals. Having your tuition, meals and housing paid for are all well and good...but some of these players come from families that can't even support themselves much less send money to their kids in college. Sure, they may blow the "allowance" on beer and pizza..but so what? Some of them may actually use it to buy gas for their families to come watch them play. It's not like the schools/NCAA aren't making shitloads of money off these players..time to give a little back.
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:34 PM joemama is offline  
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Bukkakeboy
 
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This is about state schools not private ones, big difference, private ones can do whatever they want in my eyes.

You're making assumptions about where the money goes that we have no idea is true or not. What about the salaries of professors that spend damn near no time teaching the kids but let there assistants do all the work?
And what do said professors do when not teaching? Research, thats what.

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That really wasn't my point though, my point is that I think they should be able to make money anyway they damn well please, especially when they are allowing the school to put them in significant physical harm.
Allowing to put them in sig phys harm, LULS.
They choose to play sports for a school, the school is allowing them to play sports competitively _and_ get an education.

Also, ofc they should be able to sell their autographs or whatever (for tattoos though? I have no idea what you meant by that statement but ok), but i think you need to specify some of the other activities that they want to do but arent allowed to make money off of. This is mainly a failure on my part.

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Or better yet make the school about learning and not people playing with a fucking ball.
Or let people who can/want to play sports also get a chance to get an education instead of ending up at mcdonalds @35
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:34 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Runding
 
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Pretty much the only things that college sports do for people:

1) Make a very small percentage actual, paid athletes
2) Make a buttload of Uncle Rico's(Napoleon Dynamite, anyone?)

Don't get me started on taxes going to sports and the arenas. Freeloaders up in heeya
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:45 AM Runding is offline  
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astriy
 
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The vast majority of universities are losing money on athletics right now. They cannot afford to pay athletes on top of that. Even though most colleges make a lot of money off football and men's basketball, they have to give the same accommodations to an equal number of female athletes because if Title IX
The reason they hold on to sports even though it's a losing proposition? It helps retain the alumni loyalty and give them a reason to be affiliated with the college afterwards and contribute donations. It also raises prestige (in some people's eyes) and promotes the name of the school. Athletes get the exposure they would not get anywhere else. Think of it as an unpaid internship - you're working for free, but you're getting experience and making contacts you otherwise have no way of getting.
Old 01-08-2011, 04:32 PM astriy is offline  
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The vast majority of universities are losing money on athletics right now. They cannot afford to pay athletes on top of that. Even though most colleges make a lot of money off football and men's basketball, they have to give the same accommodations to an equal number of female athletes because if Title IX
The reason they hold on to sports even though it's a losing proposition? It helps retain the alumni loyalty and give them a reason to be affiliated with the college afterwards and contribute donations. It also raises prestige (in some people's eyes) and promotes the name of the school. Athletes get the exposure they would not get anywhere else. Think of it as an unpaid internship - you're working for free, but you're getting experience and making contacts you otherwise have no way of getting.

this

Sports programs have been gutted across the nation. Top ranked schools have dropped their teams because they cant support an equal number of female sports teams Even if the male teams were supported by an outside entity.

I say change the rules and make all sports co ed. If the women cant hold the position they want, too fucking bad. If the guys cant hold thier own in syncornized swimming too fucking bad.

Lowest common denominator equality is not equality. It's called handicapping.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:50 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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To the OP:

Athletics has been considered to be an essential part of the college experience for a very long time. "College sports" covers a lot more than Div 1 basketball and football. Those are the big money consumers, and occasionally big income earners. But many, many people compete in sports that do not cost a tremendous amount of money. I grew tremendously as a person competing in sports in undergrad, and learned a lot of stuff that I could not have in the classroom. Perhaps you did not take advantage of this opportunity, but it is really a valuable thing for a lot of people. The "college is about academics" ideal is rather recent, and of questionable validity.

For the football thing: I'd rather have a school get money to play football than some fucking NFL team. At least the school will invest any profits back into other sports, instead of using public money to fatten a bank account.

There is a huge hypocrisy gap with the specific topic of football and basketball, you have a lot of kids who are not really "student"-athletes, who get lots of special academic assistance and special admittance criteria. The school basically brings them in to make money on ticket sales, then has to run this crazy song and dance to prevent them from profiting from their own fame.

Quote:
You're making assumptions about where the money goes that we have no idea is true or not. What about the salaries of professors that spend damn near no time teaching the kids but let there assistants do all the work? Give some of that money to the players.
Professors that do research instead of teaching actually bring in the large majority of the money for any research institution, through research grants. Those grants are absolutely essential for the functioning of the university. A school could give out free tuition more easily than drop all its research funding.

Last edited by Gibonius; 01-10-2011 at 06:15 AM..
Old 01-10-2011, 06:04 AM Gibonius is offline  
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crumbaker
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
To the OP:

Athletics has been considered to be an essential part of the college experience for a very long time. "College sports" covers a lot more than Div 1 basketball and football. Those are the big money consumers, and occasionally big income earners. But many, many people compete in sports that do not cost a tremendous amount of money. I grew tremendously as a person competing in sports in undergrad, and learned a lot of stuff that I could not have in the classroom. Perhaps you did not take advantage of this opportunity, but it is really a valuable thing for a lot of people. The "college is about academics" ideal is rather recent, and of questionable validity.

For the football thing: I'd rather have a school get money to play football than some fucking NFL team. At least the school will invest any profits back into other sports, instead of using public money to fatten a bank account.

There is a huge hypocrisy gap with the specific topic of football and basketball, you have a lot of kids who are not really "student"-athletes, who get lots of special academic assistance and special admittance criteria. The school basically brings them in to make money on ticket sales, then has to run this crazy song and dance to prevent them from profiting from their own fame.


Professors that do research instead of teaching actually bring in the large majority of the money for any research institution, through research grants. Those grants are absolutely essential for the functioning of the university. A school could give out free tuition more easily than drop all its research funding.

To your first point I also played sports during school. Soccer, football, basketball, and track. I was the best in my grade at the 400 and 800. I'm no fatty by any means and learned how to be good at those sports while I played them. However I did not learn any important life lessons, maybe kids with a shitty upbringing might, but I think it's a stretch of logic.

To the point about professors bringing in money from their research; I'm sure many do, but again that's another stretch. What about the latest concern of the tenure system and how much harm it's doing by allowing professors to sit on their asses and screw kids out of real teaching pay? Also what about the point that another genmay member just brought up that most of these schools are losing money on athletics?

I say get people to come to your school via scientific discoveries, medical breakthroughs, and other real reasons to attend a place that was originally designed as a place of learning. I fear that until people stop giving these sports attention nothing will change. Not sure why people give a shit about a bunch of people that don't know playing with a ball anyways. Play with a ball yourself, stop getting fat.
Old 01-10-2011, 12:23 PM crumbaker is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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To your first point I also played sports during school. Soccer, football, basketball, and track. I was the best in my grade at the 400 and 800. I'm no fatty by any means and learned how to be good at those sports while I played them. However I did not learn any important life lessons,
"In your grade" seems to say that you didn't compete during college. Either way, I'm sorry you didn't get as much out of sports as I did. It's a classical part of the college experience for a reason, generations of students have found enough value in it to want it to be funded. Only recently has the big-money side of football and basketball popped up, but those are again separate issues.
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maybe kids with a shitty upbringing might, but I think it's a stretch of logic.

Quote:
To the point about professors bringing in money from their research; I'm sure many do, but again that's another stretch. What about the latest concern of the tenure system and how much harm it's doing by allowing professors to sit on their asses and screw kids out of real teaching pay?
Quote:
I say get people to come to your school via scientific discoveries, medical breakthroughs, and other real reasons to attend a place that was originally designed as a place of learning.
You seem to be a bit confused here. The people making the scientific discoveries and the medical breakthroughs are not spending most of their time teaching classes, and it would be essentially impossible for them to contribute in research and teach a heavier load. Most research professors teach at most a class a semester, frequently graduate level classes.

Beyond that, the kids sitting in classes are actually a net drain on school resources. They don't pay the bills, the research professors do. This is not speculation or a "stretch," it is an objective fact. At research institutions, money from research far outweighs money from tuition.

Tenure is another thing, not going to be into it here for the sake of brevity. There are issues with the tenure system, but it starts at a very fundamental level, and simply removing it is not tenable.

Really you're suffering from the delusion that universities exist solely to service undergraduate students. This just is not true. Graduate level research is an equal, if not superior, consideration for universities. If you don't like this, go to a college instead, there are plenty that focus on teaching first.
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Also what about the point that another genmay member just brought up that most of these schools are losing money on athletics?
Many of them are losing money. That money usually comes from boosters, who would not be donating money if it weren't for sports. It's basically an entertainment expense.
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I fear that until people stop giving these sports attention nothing will change. Not sure why people give a shit about a bunch of people that don't know playing with a ball anyways. Play with a ball yourself, stop getting fat.
People are fat, so cutting all college sports is a good idea. Beautiful logic.

If you want to talk about football eating too much money, do so, but talking about all sports is just stupid.
Old 01-10-2011, 02:34 PM Gibonius is offline  
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crumbaker
 
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"In your grade" seems to say that you didn't compete during college. Either way, I'm sorry you didn't get as much out of sports as I did. It's a classical part of the college experience for a reason, generations of students have found enough value in it to want it to be funded. Only recently has the big-money side of football and basketball popped up, but those are again separate issues.




You seem to be a bit confused here. The people making the scientific discoveries and the medical breakthroughs are not spending most of their time teaching classes, and it would be essentially impossible for them to contribute in research and teach a heavier load. Most research professors teach at most a class a semester, frequently graduate level classes.

Beyond that, the kids sitting in classes are actually a net drain on school resources. They don't pay the bills, the research professors do. This is not speculation or a "stretch," it is an objective fact. At research institutions, money from research far outweighs money from tuition.

Tenure is another thing, not going to be into it here for the sake of brevity. There are issues with the tenure system, but it starts at a very fundamental level, and simply removing it is not tenable.

Really you're suffering from the delusion that universities exist solely to service undergraduate students. This just is not true. Graduate level research is an equal, if not superior, consideration for universities. If you don't like this, go to a college instead, there are plenty that focus on teaching first.

Many of them are losing money. That money usually comes from boosters, who would not be donating money if it weren't for sports. It's basically an entertainment expense.

People are fat, so cutting all college sports is a good idea. Beautiful logic.

If you want to talk about football eating too much money, do so, but talking about all sports is just stupid.


Stop making stupid assumptions, and putting words into my mouth.
Old 01-11-2011, 11:26 AM crumbaker is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Stop making stupid assumptions, and putting words into my mouth.

Where exactly did I make any assumptions, or put any words in your mouth?
Old 01-11-2011, 12:02 PM Gibonius is offline  
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crumbaker
 
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Where exactly did I make any assumptions, or put any words in your mouth?

The part of your post that wasn't quoting me
Old 01-11-2011, 12:44 PM crumbaker is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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The part of your post that wasn't quoting me

It would be too much work for you to actually respond to actual points in the thread you started, wouldn't it?
Old 01-11-2011, 12:58 PM Gibonius is offline  
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