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Redrum
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
It's really not all that big a cost, by US standards anyway. Hardly trivial, but if we deemed the mission worthwhile, the cost wouldn't have been a dealbreaker.

if iraq is any example we're for a half decade plus of sectarian violence, revival of millennia old tribal blood feuds, and several billion dollars burned away, only to be left with a government that slowly recedes towards sharia law and has the stability of a drunken sailor with syphilis.

better let gadafi kill a few innocents and let him be on his way. it wouldn't be the first time we looked the other way while he did this.

besides we don't belong there anyway. it isn't our fight, if the arab world truly wants to have a democratic revolution it should come from within without any assistance.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:48 PM Redrum is offline  
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who does toppling gadaffi benefit, if we're going to ignore the oil interests who obviously do. the few people in the eastern provinces who may have legitimate qualms against him? the 20% of libyans who fanatically hate him? what about the other 80%, who are either indifferent or supporters of him, and just want to be left alone?
If Gaddafi was actually supported by the people, he could have stopped the whole revolution by announcing he was going to stand for elections in the near future, then actually followed through. Obviously that was never going to happen, so he had a bunch of people shot in the face.

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it's ridiculous that you're practically admitting oil interests are behind the invasion, or intervention, or spreading of democracy or whatever you want to call it, but still claim it's a morally justified action just because a dictator who wasn't particularly nice to his people at times is being toppled. suddenly it makes it okay. taking into account what gadafi has done for libya makes it all look that much worse to the average libyan who is on the fence about the whole thing. better to deal with a local despot that you know and that you're familiar with than being at the whims of people a thousand miles away (saudi and co.)
Look, let's not pretend that this was an intervention predicated on nothing and it's all about oil. There was a popular movement against Gaddafi, he did kill a bunch of people, and he was threatening to kill more. We didn't just swoop in there for no reason. We act in some countries and not others because a variety of factors, including our national interests. Considering that as a factor doesn't make EVERY action we take there unjustifiable, as you seem to be saying.

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this constant back door imperialism under the guise of liberation and aid is exactly why the us and its allies are hated so deeply in the ME.
When exactly has this situation come up before in the ME? Supporting various scumbag dictators has earned us a hatred in the ME and elsewhere, and we haven't done much in the way of humanitarian intervention anywhere in the world. Kosovo and maybe Somalia are about it. The original spin on Iraq was WMD, so I don't think that counts.

We've stuck our noses into a lot of situation without even the slightest veneer of unselfish justification, and THAT has gotten us into trouble (see: the entire Cold War period).

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if iraq is any example we're for a half decade plus of sectarian violence, revival of millennia old tribal blood feuds, and several billion dollars burned away, only to be left with a government that slowly recedes towards sharia law and has the stability of a drunken sailor with syphilis.
Considering there is about a 0.0000000001% chance we land any occupation troops in Libya, the idea that "we" are in for much of anything is a stretch. The country is certainly going to be in turmoil for awhile, but that was going to happen regardless of intervention.
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better let gadafi kill a few innocents and let him be on his way. it wouldn't be the first time we looked the other way while he did this.

besides we don't belong there anyway. it isn't our fight, if the arab world truly wants to have a democratic revolution it should come from within without any assistance.
It was rather more than "a few" people this time. As far as the Arab world doing it on their own, it's pretty damn hard to ever overthrow a dictator who has the support of his military and has no hesitation about using it against their own people. The Syria, Libya, and Bahrain are fighting hard to get rid of their leaders, but they probably aren't going to succeed without outside help (and Syria and Bahrain aren't going to get any). If NATO had gotten moving in Libya faster, the original popular uprising would have gained momentum and Gaddafi would probably be gone by now. Instead, he killed a lot of people, broke the spirit of the less committed revolutionaries, and turned it into a civil war where only the die-hards are fighting against him. Without that popular momentum, the odds of a near-term positive outcome are pretty low which is unfortunate.
Old 07-07-2011, 11:26 PM Gibonius is offline  
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you blame nato for the quagmire, i think it's more because libyans realized that they were not living anywhere near the squalor the egyptians and tunisians were living in, and that it was not worth it.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:41 PM Redrum is offline  
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you blame nato for the quagmire, i think it's more because libyans realized that they were not living anywhere near the squalor the egyptians and tunisians were living in, and that it was not worth it.

It does take quite a bit to take to the streets after seeing dozens of people get shot in the face. Never came to that in Egypt or Tunisia, so who knows just how committed they'd have been in the face of serious resistance.

Makes you wonder just how bad things are in Syria, for people to still be flooding the streets after so many have been killed. I haven't heard quite as much about Bahrain, not sure how many have been killed there. They did manage to make the President flee so that's something.

Last edited by Gibonius; 07-07-2011 at 11:53 PM..
Old 07-07-2011, 11:48 PM Gibonius is offline  
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libya = iraq
Old 07-08-2011, 11:55 PM luvmylegend is offline  
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libya = iraq
how eloquent spambot
Old 07-09-2011, 12:01 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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What's pretty funny is that rape propaganda that's surfacing again. You know, Gaddafi providing government paid viagra to soldiers so they can rape without having some erectile difficulties ( )


Seems like it'd be more honest to say that some of these noble rebels that are supported by western money, go around the countryside brutalizing people
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:46 AM Straw Man is offline  
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