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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
where the fuck is a third grader gonna get a live grenade? use some god damn sense. They have been selling disarmed grenades as novelty items since forever.

this is just as fucking stupid as the kid who got kicked out of school for bringing his boy scout folding utensil to school.



except it wasn't a weapon, it was a novelty paper weight.



A grenade without explosives in it IS NOT A FUCKING GRENADE.

one is a deadly weapon of war and the other is an inert piece of metal.



it's not even capable of violence.

Zero Tolerance is just an excuse not to think.

No, zero tolerance is not an excuse not to think. You argue from the luxury of knowing it was not a weapon capable of violence, in your home, not around other children in an atmosphere of increasing school violence--which puts people on edge.

If you took that inert, harmless paperweight--that looked exactly like a grenade--and happened to walk out at arms length towards the cop, what do you think would happen?

There is a reason you would still be brought up on charges if you waved a fake, yet visually identical gun, in a crowd.

It doesn't matter that it wasn't real. It looked real. And that is cause enough for concern and action from the part of the school.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:35 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Vendetta
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WHERE IS A THIRD GRADER GOING TO GET A LIVE GRENADE IN THE UNITED STATES?


The grenade can be replaced by any deactivated weapon. A teacher may not know the tell tale signs of a deactivated weapon--gun or grenade. The students, particularly youths, might be offset by the sight of a fucking grenade in school.

If a teacher sees a gun, they must assume it is real because the penalty of being wrong--school evacuation and police called--is greater than the penalty of being right, a dangerous weapon in school.

If a teacher sees a grenade, they must assume it is real or at the least, that they dont know. Because the penalty of being wrong--that it is just another dud grenade and they wasted the time of the bomb squad and evav'ed the school--is greater than the penalty of being right.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:40 PM Vendetta is offline  
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intent. i didnt read. did the kid bring it in as a paperweight? or was he chasing kids around with it?
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:42 PM Vigilante is offline  
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
The grenade can be replaced by any deactivated weapon. A teacher may not know the tell tale signs of a deactivated weapon--gun or grenade. The students, particularly youths, might be offset by the sight of a fucking grenade in school.

If a teacher sees a gun, they must assume it is real because the penalty of being wrong--school evacuation and police called--is greater than the penalty of being right, a dangerous weapon in school.

If a teacher sees a grenade, they must assume it is real or at the least, that they dont know. Because the penalty of being wrong--that it is just another dud grenade and they wasted the time of the bomb squad and evav'ed the school--is greater than the penalty of being right.
what about the effect on this kids life? Expulsion, police involvement, etc. Way to ruin a 8 year olds live because of your logic.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:43 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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intent. i didnt read. did the kid bring it in as a paperweight? or was he chasing kids around with it?

Show and Tell.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:43 PM Coqui is offline  
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Vendetta
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intent. i didnt read. did the kid bring it in as a paperweight? or was he chasing kids around with it?

I don't think he was chasing kids around with it, but intent doesn't matter. Not when you don't have the luxury of knowing it's definitely a dud, like we do, after the fact. If a kid brought a real gun into school--completely by accident--but told the school it was fake (let say a water pistol) and that he would keep it in his pocket and not wave it around...would this be acceptable? Not to me.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:43 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
but logically theres no reason you shouldnt be able to do that if you dont intend to use it as a weapon.

(bring a weapon on a plane)

Yeah, because "normal" non-gun-owning people are SOOOOO comfortable around guns

80% of the people you'd meet on an airport are idiots that are scared of a watergun, so even somebody mentioning BOMB or GUN on an airport is bound to get their cavities searched, just cause.

Just because you've held a gun and can figure if something is real or not, does not mean a fucking pink see-through watergun is not as real as shit for the old lady standing behind you
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:46 PM Tab_diagonal is offline  
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Yeah, because "normal" non-gun-owning people are SOOOOO comfortable around guns

80% of the people you'd meet on an airport are idiots that are scared of a watergun, so even somebody mentioning BOMB or GUN on an airport is bound to get their cavities searched, just cause.

Just because you've held a gun and can figure if something is real or not, does not mean a fucking pink see-through watergun is not as real as shit for the old lady standing behind you
maybe they wouldnt be if it wasnt all so sensationalized...
Old 10-10-2011, 12:47 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
what about the effect on this kids life? Expulsion, police involvement, etc. Way to ruin a 8 year olds live because of your logic.

Motherfucker, I was given a suspension because I did not report my best friend bringing firecrackers to the bus stop. Even though when he realized he had them, he broke them in half and dunked them in a puddle. I thought I had the bum rap, appealed the suspension, and won.

Look back over my posts. I'm not defending his expulsion, I'm defending the no tolerance policy and the reaction of the school given the plausible alternatives.

Case A: Student legitimately knew it was deactivated, thought it would be cool, brought it into school. School reacts how they should. Kid gets expelled. Kid likely knew the fucking rules, but let's just assume he was completely ignorant. Would the kid be, imo, justified with appealing his suspension? Sure.

Case B: student knew he had a fake gun (or grenade, or whatever) and wanted to bring it into school because he thought the reactions would be cool and it would be fun. Kid knew the rules, but is telling administration he didn't know. Even if he was young. What do we do here?

You have to consider the big picture and not individual actions when justifying your policy. In cases such as this, it's being able to know the difference between a student bringing a deactivated weapon to school out of pure ignorance, and a student who brought it in specifically to cause a reaction.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:48 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
The grenade can be replaced by any deactivated weapon. A teacher may not know the tell tale signs of a deactivated weapon--gun or grenade. The students, particularly youths, might be offset by the sight of a fucking grenade in school.

If a teacher sees a gun, they must assume it is real because the penalty of being wrong--school evacuation and police called--is greater than the penalty of being right, a dangerous weapon in school.

If a teacher sees a grenade, they must assume it is real or at the least, that they dont know. Because the penalty of being wrong--that it is just another dud grenade and they wasted the time of the bomb squad and evav'ed the school--is greater than the penalty of being right.

If it was something like a gun that was actually a lighter, I could understand the teacher being reasonably upset because a gun is something a kid could reasonably get his hands on. You can buy guns anywhere, a kid could have snagged one from his parents. No one has live grenades just sitting around their home. You cannot buy them, you cannot own them, and they don't let soldiers take them home as souvenirs. There is no way for a kid to get one.

It would have made more sense to confiscate it, call the parents, and return it at the end of the day and tell the kid not to bring it back to school again. end of problem.

I just really hope the kid doesn't get reamed over something so ridiculous.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:49 PM pyramid is offline  
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its an 8 year old.... this wasnt a willful act of breaking any rules.

a 14 year old? yeah, your logic is probably right. But goddamn common sense applies here. Overarching non situation specific policy is dumb. You SHOULD consider the circumstances of every scenario rather than just default to blindly following a set of guidelines.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:50 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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#56  

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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
maybe they wouldnt be if it wasnt all so sensationalized...

Maybe you can change everyone's minds by having a wrong opinion on a internet forum. It works, as we've seen again and again.

Remember that one time you argued for looser gun control and acceptance of open gun ownership on /b/ or /k/ or whatever, and as a result the TSA was disbanded and all guns and knives "reasonably useful and harmless" being a everyday knives and empty guns were brought on board of planes with no problem, and everyone was cool with everyone carrying guns, and there was no terrorism, and nobody robbed anyone and there were no rapes anymore?

Yeah, me neither.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:52 PM Tab_diagonal is offline  
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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
its an 8 year old.... this wasnt a willful act of breaking any rules.

a 14 year old? yeah, your logic is probably right. But goddamn common sense applies here.

Right. Because you have to be a certain age to knowingly break the rules and have a weapon. Tell that to Kayla Roland. Oh that's right, she was shot and killed in school by a 6-year old with a gun, who shouted "I don't like you" as he shot her. Keep picking arbitrary cut offs and tell yourself you make good arguments.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:53 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
Overarching non situation specific policy is dumb. You SHOULD consider the circumstances of every scenario rather than just default to blindly following a set of guidelines.

Not when the penalty of being wrong is far outweighed by the penalty of being right. And you have a lot of balls to argue from the point of complete knowledge. It's a much different situation when you're in the school, in the moment, dealing with something you're not sure about (fake gun, real gun, fake grenade, real grenade), when you are responsible for the lives of hundreds of students. And when you don't have much time to act.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:55 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Right. Because you have to be a certain age to knowingly break the rules and have a weapon. Tell that to Kayla Roland. Oh that's right, she was shot and killed in school by a 6-year old with a gun, who shouted "I don't like you" as he shot her.
and guess what the court ruling was for the kid that shot her....

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Due to Owens' age and lack of ability to form intent, Owens was never charged for the murder.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:55 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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