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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
well as long as the bottom feeders like you get to suck the muck for decaying bits it's all good right

i'm not the one peddling restless leg syndrome pills.
Old 03-09-2009, 11:44 PM Xayd is offline  
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Bukkakeboy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Palin View Post
I work in the healthcare industry and I can't see how socializing it is going to benefit anyone except the really poor or the really lazy who already have both hands out to the government and just want more.

You have to keep in mind that we live in a capatalistic society, so people want to make money, they want to be wealthy and work for it, others see what wealthy people have and want it for themselves but don't realize they should work for it and earn it for themselves, rather than expecting the government to give it to them.

Take doctors. It used to be that you became a doctor to become rich. You go through medical school, you put in time for specialized training, you go through the expense of setting up your practice and you make money. Nowadays, it's a struggle to make ends meet. With the rising costs of insurance premiums, and unbelievable malpractice premiums, it's hard to make ends meet let alone become wealthy.

Who becomes wealthy now? The insurance companies. They charge astronomical rates for premiums and then when it comes time to cover services.. they pay pennies to the providers. It's not unusal for our practice to perform a specialized test on a person using a specially trained person and specialized equipment (all which cost big money) only to receive $30 reimbursement from the insurance companies. On average, you're doing very well if your practice can collect 48% of what you bill. Where does that other 52% go? It's not write offs to bad-debts, it's write-offs to insurance companies who pay a fraction of what is billed.

Now, if you take away the ability for a doctor to make money and become wealthy, then who becomes a doctor? Who is going to go through the expense of medical school, the decade of training and then the expense of setting up shop when theres no money in it?

Look at any country with universal healthcare/socialized medicine, are the doctors there struggling to make ends meet? Now look at your country, if there are doctors struggling to make ends meet I'd bet they are living well beyond their means.
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Take doctors. It used to be that you became a doctor to become rich.
Its fucking stupid of you to assume that noone will bother to become doctors if you couldnt get wealthy of it. Believe it or not, but most people are in it to help people. If they just wanted money they could have studied economics. And I honestly don't think most americans are much different. (Med schools require the highest grades to accept people here, as in there is no other education that has more applicants)



Quote:
On top of that, you then have efficiency healthcare, where everything is run by the dollar. You use the most cost effective treatments rather than the most effective treatments. If someone has a poor prognosis, forget treatments to extend life, they get cut off. Sure this socialized healthcare thing may look good on paper or when you look at the numbers, but when you really sit down and look at how it actually effects people and healthcare, it's ridiculous. You're going to have a flawed system dishing out sub-par treatments by sub-par practitioners... if theres no money in it, people aren't going to do it. This is, after all the United States of America.
You live in the US and you speak like you've got first hand experience getting raped by the bad socialized healthcare monster.
You don't know shit.
Like I said in a previous thread, over 90% of our _TOTAL_ medical expenses go towards treating the last years of peoples lives. Now suck on that and fucking swallow it.

Your problem is:
a) your inability to see that uninsured people in the U.S might not all be lazy mooches living only to leech as much as possible from the gov'ment and you few poor hard working americans
b) your inability to read the thread, there have been lots of good points brought up.
c) your "knowledge" of soc-med, thats nothing but right wing propaganda bs and rumors.
d) your assumption that just because you live in a capitalist country, the main motivation for everyone, at any time is to get wealthy.

I'm sure your post already will have been torn to shreds, but I felt the need to chime in.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:22 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Originally Posted by Sarah Palin View Post
I happen to think that our privatized healthcare system is better than Europes nationalized. I have a person whose parents lived in Europe and the father was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Now there were treatments available to prolong life but they were denied under the system because it wasn't cost-effecive, the guy wasn't eligible for the treatment so his treatment plan was to be made comfortable and face death. Luckily for this guy he was very wealthy and could afford to pay privately for treatment and he lived for a few more years...

That is the kind of thing that scares me. I mean the big complaint right now is that only the wealthy get treatment, but what I see happening is limiting quality healthcare to MORE people in the long run.

What?

So the few people with those kinds of unspecified terminal illnesses who can't afford private treatments are a bigger number then the amount of uninsured people in the U.S?
It better be, otherwise you have no argument and just sound like a dumb OMGOMGOMGOMG.


ps: as a highly educated and privileged man, I actually have a genuine desire to help those less fortunate then me. I see that not everyone in my country/the world have had it as easy as me and it takes nothing from my enjoyment of life (it actually adds to it, who'd have thunk it?) to be able to help those who have been dealt a shitty hand in life or people who have been unlucky at bad moments or who have fucked up a couple of times in their lives.

Sure it sucks with mooches&leeches, but we can't cut them out without also cutting out those who honestly need the help. You take the good with the bad, and you know that you still end up helping people who need it.
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Last edited by Bukkakeboy; 03-10-2009 at 02:54 AM..
Old 03-10-2009, 02:32 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
We honestly need to look at our philosophy of facing death. We spend SO MUCH money to keep people alive and miserable for a few more weeks or months, and with full knowledge that they're still going to die. If you can get a few more years of reasonable quality life, maybe it's worth it to spend a couple hundred thousand dollars, but we see way too many people who are just afraid of letting go, or even worse, too many families who can't let go of loved ones.

I mean, we can treat a whole lot of people who will recover for the price of giving one terminal cancer patient another five months of misery.

Not withstanding my quote on the statistics of medical expenses (which only was to refute palins shit), I 100% agree with this statement. I do think its a waste to spend so much money on extending a couple of weeks/months, when so many others could have been helped
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:35 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
...

Infant mortality rates:

Rank(more is better) Country deaths/1,000 live births

163 United States 6.3

168 Cuba 5.1


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mortality_rate
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:38 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
So we can have our broken system now or we can have someone elses less than perfect system but we definitely aren't smart enough to come up with anything even slightly better than what the rest of the world already has?

I don't believe that. We can do better. We went to the fucking moon just because we thought it was cool and we did it in under a decade just to piss off the ruskies. We can build a better health care system that actually works like it should.


No sarcasm, no irony, no nothing:

I 100% agree here, the U.S is FULL of smart people, I have no doubt if you really tried you could make a healthcare system better then whats available in european countries.

The problem is though, you won't :\
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:43 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
and yet it moves

honestly, how retarded are you?

I used to think you were fairly smart, just infantile and bitter.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:46 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
But from what I just glimpsed on google a doctor can not do both. He has to either private practice or UHC practice.

and why is this?


UHC doesn't mean "omg we cant have a private sector"
There is no good reason to not have both.

Now, if it is practical for a doctor to run private & uhc is another matter.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:48 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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This is an unavoidable truth that the entire UHC bastion continues to ignore.

In Canada, many surgeries are not available in a timely manner even if you can pay for them.

So I ask again, is your point: The US has more advanced medicine which costs more and that explains the cost differential between us and Europe

It's not a loaded question. Assuming you could prove this, it would be a valid point. So is that your (or Sarah's) point?
Old 03-10-2009, 08:13 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
It used to be illegal. Now they have switched and allow private sector. Because UHC simply did not work for them. Unless they about faced again.

But from what I just glimpsed on google a doctor can not do both. He has to either private practice or UHC practice.

Your ignorance knows no bounds it seems. The vast majority of health care in Canada was and continues to be funded by the government. While it is true that many of the services are provided by private entities (and this has been true for a long time), the government is still footing the bill in most cases. Exceptions are the small number of MRI/CT scan clinics (and even then, most are funded by the provinces), dentist visits, cosmetic surgery, private hospital rooms, and a hernia center.
Old 03-10-2009, 08:22 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
Infant mortality rates:

Rank(more is better) Country deaths/1,000 live births

163 United States 6.3

168 Cuba 5.1


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mortality_rate

High infant mortality rates in US = crack whores and 45 year old women having first time kids.

And you might want to pick somewhere other than cuba for stats.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:28 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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And you might want to pick somewhere other than cuba for stats.

Ok. How about England? I'm not sure what ranking system you looked at, but having surveyed a few of them from various years, England seems to consistently ranked better than the US.

Quote:
High infant mortality rates in US = crack whores and 45 year old women having first time kids.
Sounds made up to me. Especially when you look at US drug use versus England drug use.

Don't suppose you have better sources?
Old 03-10-2009, 08:48 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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TheMorlock
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There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 03-10-2009, 08:49 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Yes, I saw those search results too. As far as I can tell, none of them attribute the difference between us and other countries to higher drug use in our country. Sure, they say drug use might be a factor in infant mortality but there's a long way to go from that to explaining away the differences between a country like England and the US. (Feel free to check my previous post for the actual drug use stats for those countries too, you'll probably be surprised and/or infuriated.)
Old 03-10-2009, 09:42 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Infant Deaths Drop in U.S., but Rate Is Still High - NYTimes.com
Oct 16, 2008 ... Some blame cultural issues like obesity and drug use


Infant Deaths Drop in U.S., but Rate Is Still High : Information ...
Infant mortality has long been considered one of the most important indicators of ... Ms. Turner blamed socioeconomic factors like obesity, high drug use, ...
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21030.htm - 29k
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:57 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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