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xrs444
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidelmo

There's a huge cultural difference though. A lot of people in the US are armed and you guys respect guns and your rights etc which is fine by me. If we introduced guns into the UK tomorrow I'm convinced there would be chaos. There are a HUGE number of idiot charvers (http://chavscum.co.uk/) and thugs here and the thought of them all carrying guns is terrifying. At the moment they are petty criminals (occasional burglary, smashing up cars, bus stops etc) but if they all became armed I think I'd leave the country. In that situation I dont feel that having a gun myself would make me safe when they hang around in groups of 20.

I'm not anti-gun. I have several air guns and I'm a member of my uni shooting team (rifles and shotguns) but I don't think guns for everyone, at least in this country, is a good idea.

I think the arguement that legalising handguns would put them into the hands of chavs is rather weak, I doubt any chav would pass the Home Office inspection required to own a pistol pre Cat 5 classification even if they did wish to pay the full whack for one.

Considering how cheap it is to buy an unlicenced illegal firearm over here, and the cost is way lower than a brand new shop bought licenced one pre-ban what self respecting criminal will go through the scrutany of a firearms cert, inspections and all, when they can get an unlicenced one dirt cheap.

I think there should be *some* gun control, to stop the nutters owning small arsenals, and fully automatic weapons and grenade launchers and so on are probably best left to the military, at the same time it would be nice for people to realise that gun control does not in itself combat gun crime. In the UK we have incredibly strict gun laws now, and they're getting stricter, yet our gun crime is still rising.

In fact, if you want to play with the stats a bit, you can show how gun crime increased with every time the control was tightened....

Fight the cause not the symptoms eh?
Old 02-22-2006, 03:26 AM xrs444 is offline  
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#46  

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Davidelmo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclefester1790
tried the "chav" link above. would some of our uk members mind providing me with some translations of some of the content on this link.

http://chavscum.co.uk/whattheysay.php

Not a fucking clue sorry.

These people are just idiots. Honestly they should be steralised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Othersider
So you're basically operating under the assumption that the UK is inherently worse than the U.S., and the only thing keeping it from becoming an utter shithole is its lack of handguns?

Not really. What I meant was that you guys are USED to guns. They're part of your culture and are fairly "normal." Many brits probably have never even seen a gun before. I think suddenly saying, "now you can buy and own a gun" is a bad idea because of the culture shock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrs444
I think the arguement that legalising handguns would put them into the hands of chavs is rather weak, I doubt any chav would pass the Home Office inspection required to own a pistol pre Cat 5 classification even if they did wish to pay the full whack for one.

Considering how cheap it is to buy an unlicenced illegal firearm over here, and the cost is way lower than a brand new shop bought licenced one pre-ban what self respecting criminal will go through the scrutany of a firearms cert, inspections and all, when they can get an unlicenced one dirt cheap.

I think there should be *some* gun control, to stop the nutters owning small arsenals, and fully automatic weapons and grenade launchers and so on are probably best left to the military, at the same time it would be nice for people to realise that gun control does not in itself combat gun crime. In the UK we have incredibly strict gun laws now, and they're getting stricter, yet our gun crime is still rising.

In fact, if you want to play with the stats a bit, you can show how gun crime increased with every time the control was tightened....

Fight the cause not the symptoms eh?

I thought we were talking about everyone owning guns. For the purposes of the discussion I was assuming there would be no criteria to own one. But you're right, (hopefully) most chavs wouldn't pass the inspection.

Even so, once guns are legal to be sold here then it would also become easier to get an illegal one. It's foolish to think there are no illegal guns here but once they were introduced it becomes much much easier to get a hold of one by getting it second hand, robbing the store, stealing someone elses etc.
Old 02-22-2006, 03:37 AM Davidelmo is offline  
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#47  

Othersider
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidelmo
Not really. What I meant was that you guys are USED to guns. They're part of your culture and are fairly "normal." Many brits probably have never even seen a gun before. I think suddenly saying, "now you can buy and own a gun" is a bad idea because of the culture shock.

Okay, got you there. But I don't think you give people enough credit.

Remember, anything other than really shitty guns are big-ticket items. You can't dig through your pocket change and buy a pistol. I'd like to think that most people who can comfortably spend nearly 1000 USD for something purely recreational are rather responsible.

I was in a range in Las Vegas and there were a couple British guys there having the time of their lives shooting. If anything, the unfamiliarity was keeping them extra-cautious. They were following the range postings to a letter, and actually were a little freaked out when my friend finished up his box of ammo before sweeping up the cartridges. They were sweeping after every mag!
Old 02-22-2006, 02:23 PM Othersider is offline  
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#48  

xrs444
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidelmo
Not a fucking clue sorry.

These people are just idiots. Honestly they should be steralised.



Not really. What I meant was that you guys are USED to guns. They're part of your culture and are fairly "normal." Many brits probably have never even seen a gun before. I think suddenly saying, "now you can buy and own a gun" is a bad idea because of the culture shock.



I thought we were talking about everyone owning guns. For the purposes of the discussion I was assuming there would be no criteria to own one. But you're right, (hopefully) most chavs wouldn't pass the inspection.

Even so, once guns are legal to be sold here then it would also become easier to get an illegal one. It's foolish to think there are no illegal guns here but once they were introduced it becomes much much easier to get a hold of one by getting it second hand, robbing the store, stealing someone elses etc.


To be honest I doubt it would make a big difference. Second hand sales are out as the police like to visit every six months or so and ask where your guns are, and woe betide you if you can't account for every one. Theft is tricky due to the storage conditions you have to maintain to own such weapons.

Biggest problem the UK faces at the moment is not guns, it's not weapons in general. It's the lack of regard for human life that criminals are showing. Rather than ineffectively fight symptoms with useless legislation that harms legitimate users, what is needed is better enforcement of the existing law and stricter penalties.

Some of the recent sentances handed out by the courts for firearms offences (and indeed offences in general, especially motoring offences) are ludicrous.
Old 02-23-2006, 04:27 AM xrs444 is offline  
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#49  

Davidelmo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Othersider
Okay, got you there. But I don't think you give people enough credit.

Remember, anything other than really shitty guns are big-ticket items. You can't dig through your pocket change and buy a pistol. I'd like to think that most people who can comfortably spend nearly 1000 USD for something purely recreational are rather responsible.

I was in a range in Las Vegas and there were a couple British guys there having the time of their lives shooting. If anything, the unfamiliarity was keeping them extra-cautious. They were following the range postings to a letter, and actually were a little freaked out when my friend finished up his box of ammo before sweeping up the cartridges. They were sweeping after every mag!

Maybe I dont give people enough credit but I don't fancy the retards being armed. In a perfect world, everyone would be responsible and the retards wouldn't have guns but of course that could never happen. In that case I'd rather no-one had them.

Guns are fun though

Next time i'm in the US I'm going to find a range somewhere and fire the baddest fucker they have. I saw a program where some air rifle nuts from the UK went over to Texas and were playing with enormous sniper rifles, full auto guns etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrs444
To be honest I doubt it would make a big difference. Second hand sales are out as the police like to visit every six months or so and ask where your guns are, and woe betide you if you can't account for every one. Theft is tricky due to the storage conditions you have to maintain to own such weapons.

Biggest problem the UK faces at the moment is not guns, it's not weapons in general. It's the lack of regard for human life that criminals are showing. Rather than ineffectively fight symptoms with useless legislation that harms legitimate users, what is needed is better enforcement of the existing law and stricter penalties.

Some of the recent sentances handed out by the courts for firearms offences (and indeed offences in general, especially motoring offences) are ludicrous.

I do agree with most of this. Sentencing is retarded. Maximum sentence for burglary is 1 year, regardless of what you stole, whether you smashed the place up etc. If they are under 18 they probably won't get prosecuted and even if they are they can probably be out of jail in 6 months. It's mental.

Tony Blair: "tough on crime and the causes of crime."

Bullshit. They waste time prosecuting pathetic things and it seems the criminals have everything in their favour.
Old 02-24-2006, 06:48 AM Davidelmo is offline  
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#50  

unclefester1790
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidelmo
I do agree with most of this. Sentencing is retarded. Maximum sentence for burglary is 1 year, regardless of what you stole, whether you smashed the place up etc. If they are under 18 they probably won't get prosecuted and even if they are they can probably be out of jail in 6 months. It's mental.

Tony Blair: "tough on crime and the causes of crime."

Bullshit. They waste time prosecuting pathetic things and it seems the criminals have everything in their favour.

exactly, leave the criminals to rot in prison and leave us law abiding citizens and our hobby alone.
Old 02-24-2006, 09:34 AM unclefester1790 is offline  
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#51  

dextertheorphan
 
The UK has very very little violent crime, this is because guns aren't legal there.

Guns are only necessary in a country where you require protection from the other people in your country.
Old 02-24-2006, 10:10 AM dextertheorphan is offline  
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#52  

Soybomb
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dextertheorphan
The UK has very very little violent crime, this is because guns aren't legal there.

Guns are only necessary in a country where you require protection from the other people in your country.
Do you live in the UK too?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...785929,00.html

"SCOTLAND is the most violent country in the developed world, according to a United Nations report."

I call getting knifed a violent crime. You always need protection from others. People don't turn nice just because they don't have a gun, they just find another tool. Ymmv.

Last edited by Soybomb; 02-24-2006 at 11:15 AM..
Old 02-24-2006, 11:09 AM Soybomb is offline  
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#53  

WickedAngel
 
*Sigh*

Criminals are going to get guns, regardless of whether or not it's illegal. It's pure ignorance to suggest otherwise. We call them criminals because they break laws; a gun law isn't going to deter them anymore than the other laws that they routinely broke to become known as criminals. There are people in this world that don't respond to "No", "Stop", and "Please don't kill me".

While I can't justify a civilian owning a fully-automatic weapon, I can argue why someone would want a Walther P99c to carry with permit. I can imagine why a select few want to have defense against the masses of ignorant people out there. Some people have nothing better to do than steal and hurt others. I can't count the number of times that I've been confronted by a group of ignorant hicks in my town for nothing more than me riding a crotch rocket (The status quo for Hickville, GA is big, obnoxious trucks with more bark than bite). Then there are the random drunken frat boys who think with their dicks instead of their brains, which is why my girlfriend will be getting her CCW soon as well.

There are many reasons why weapons are needed. Keeping the government in "check" isn't the only one.

By the way, the military brats in here really need to get realistic...the government couldn't just roll over a domestic insurgency if they became fascist. They can barely handle an untrained force of thousands in Iraq; engaging millions of domestic gun owners who routinely practice with their weapons wouldn't be wise.
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Old 02-25-2006, 06:57 PM WickedAngel is offline  
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#54  

vinnie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dextertheorphan
The UK has very very little violent crime, this is because guns aren't legal there.

Guns are only necessary in a country where you require protection from the other people in your country.

Americans think that the whole world is just like them. What they don't realise is that they are extremely insular and the whole world is actually quite different.

For anything that you will say, I guarantee that some poof bashing, jerky gnawing, checked shirt wearing, gun toting, jew hating American has already written a counter point for. Probably won't even make sense, almost certainly subjective and doesn't apply to any culture except their own... yet it will still get used against what you say.

The whole rest of the world knows that no one except the US is the US... but they want to apply their culture to the rest of us. It's best to just smile and nod when it comes to things like this
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:03 PM vinnie is offline  
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#55  

WickedAngel
 
It has nothing to do with culture. It's about defending yourself from those who can and will do harm to you if allowed to. Violent nature isn't limited to the borders of the United States.
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:50 PM WickedAngel is offline  
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#56  

Defiler
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie
Americans think that the whole world is just like them. What they don't realise is that they are extremely insular and the whole world is actually quite different.

For anything that you will say, I guarantee that some poof bashing, jerky gnawing, checked shirt wearing, gun toting, jew hating American has already written a counter point for. Probably won't even make sense, almost certainly subjective and doesn't apply to any culture except their own... yet it will still get used against what you say.

The whole rest of the world knows that no one except the US is the US... but they want to apply their culture to the rest of us. It's best to just smile and nod when it comes to things like this

Well, we are talking about america right? I was not aware we were having a discussion of gun control in Europe. Perhaps before you make ignorant comments about americans, you check what the topic of discussion is. If you are happy with your laws and standards, good. I dont really give a fuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dextertheorphan
The UK has very very little violent crime, this is because guns aren't legal there.

Guns are only necessary in a country where you require protection from the other people in your country.

Well, unfortunatly for us, in every area where guns are forbidden, it is a huge problem. In Washington D.C. it is supposed to be a Gun Free area, nobody is allowed to have them. The only catch is that there are more illegal weapon is washington D.C. than anywhere else in the country, and a lot of crime. So for our society, banning something that we have had a right to use since our beginings is not gonna work out well.
Plus, not every person owns a gun for self defense. Competition shooting is pretty popular, plus i like to go to the range and practice because i enjoy shooting. I dont live in an area with bad crime, or a huge need to have a gun for self defense. I do own a shotgun, which is a good home defense weapon, but I have it for skeet shooting more than anything.
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Old 02-25-2006, 07:58 PM Defiler is offline  
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#57  

vinnie
OH MY GOD!!! I LOVE SUCKING COCK!!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiler
Well, we are talking about america right? I was not aware we were having a discussion of gun control in Europe. Perhaps before you make ignorant comments about americans, you check what the topic of discussion is.

I looked again and I still don't see the sign that says "Genmay US, all non Americans are not allowed to post". Perhaps you'd like to take a screenshot and highlight that part please?

Maybe you'd like to read the first post again too. I'll highlight the pertinent parts for you.

Quote:
Guns everywhere

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should guns be legal in every country in the world? The way the US is handling firearm regulation, should it be applied everywhere else?
Would it take something away from your attitude about guns as an American if people in the whole world had the same stuff in their homes?
Are guns in society an American thing?
Are you that fucking self important that you can't see that for the desperation to defend your 'right' to try and force your violent hate filled 'culture' on the rest of the world?
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Last edited by vinnie; 02-25-2006 at 11:44 PM..
Old 02-25-2006, 11:42 PM vinnie is offline  
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#58  

Defiler
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie
I looked again and I still don't see the sign that says "Genmay US, all non Americans are not allowed to post". Perhaps you'd like to take a screenshot and highlight that part please?

Maybe you'd like to read the first post again too. I'll highlight the pertinent parts for you.


I fucked up, ill admit it..
I just dont like your comments about how people in the united states have this unsatiated desire to 'force' our way of thinking unto others. Other than maybe during the height of the cold war, I cant think of many examples of americans pushing our culture into another, other than one reason. We are internationally involved with just about everything now. Its for our own security and safety. History has shown the isolationism is not very safe way to deal with the world. The very fact that we are the world's sole remaining superpower, is means enough that our culture and influence is gonna spread. Is that somehow our fault? no. its the way things turned out. If we sit back, we get criticized for not getting involved. If we get involved, we become critisized for being aggressors. If we do things that is nothing more than our own business, we still get critisized and blamed for this and that. The war in Iraq was something that WE undertook, great britain, and some others decided to join in, but in no way did we force them to help.
We are in no way forcing anybody to do jack shit. Nobody here is saying that Great Britain, or anyone else should adopt america's gun laws. You assumed that, by saying americans cant understand that our laws only work here. To be fair, your right. Our laws dont necessarily work out in every country. But your comments are misguided, and uncalled for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie
Are you that fucking self important that you can't see that for the desperation to defend your 'right' to try and force your violent hate filled 'culture' on the rest of the world?

want to rewrite this in english?
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Old 02-26-2006, 12:29 AM Defiler is offline  
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#59  

vinnie
OH MY GOD!!! I LOVE SUCKING COCK!!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiler
The war in Iraq was something that WE undertook, great britain, and some others decided to join in, but in no way did we force them to help.
We are in no way forcing anybody to do jack shit.

Is that what your media tells you? It wouldn't surprise me.

The real picture is, we at least, were dragged into it with the threat of cutting or severely damaging trade links to the point of it was virtually admitted that if we didn't there would be no free trade agreement and our farming exports would die horribly. We had little choice were we to survive.

Not that I mind as an individual, don't get me wrong. Like my sig says, I voted for Howard then joined the army, rather than voting for the communists and protesting against the war. I'm all for killing Iraqis. I don't mind that aspect of the Americans, I'm also aware of how little public support your leader and the war has though. It's not a majority decision.

What I'm getting at culture wise is your attitude towards civilians with guns, violence and crime. It's different to the rest of the world. I don't like it and neither does the rest of the world. That's what this thread is about
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Old 02-26-2006, 10:51 PM vinnie is offline  
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