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joemama
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Originally Posted by justaddcheese View Post
Good points, but it would seem that in the US it's very hard to be taken seriously any time one brings up the topic of ending the war on drugs. Usually the person/organization is considered a bunch of hippy junkies who just want to live in a hedonistic drug filled utopia and rot the minds of children.

The vast majority of people stay drug-free in their lives because drugs have harmful side effects to what they want to accomplish in life, not because they're illegal. Just look at why people stop using - because it has become detrimental to their lives, not because they're all of a sudden afraid of getting caught.
While it's true that people who avoid drugs for the reasons you listed would still avoid them if they were legalized/decriminalized....there would be an even larger number of the population that would try drugs for the first time simply out of curiosity or because they were never exposed to them before. Yes, even though it seems like "drugs are everywhere and anyone can get them"...there is still a large part of society that don't personally know anyone who does illegal drugs or know where to get them. I think this is the dilemma that lawmakers have when considering legalization...the hardcore users won't go simply for the government controlled "safe doses" and will continue to use the black market, and you would have first time users who otherwise wouldn't be..
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:48 AM joemama is offline  
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CommiePunk
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While it's true that people who avoid drugs for the reasons you listed would still avoid them if they were legalized/decriminalized....there would be an even larger number of the population that would try drugs for the first time simply out of curiosity or because they were never exposed to them before. Yes, even though it seems like "drugs are everywhere and anyone can get them"...there is still a large part of society that don't personally know anyone who does illegal drugs or know where to get them. I think this is the dilemma that lawmakers have when considering legalization...the hardcore users won't go simply for the government controlled "safe doses" and will continue to use the black market, and you would have first time users who otherwise wouldn't be..

also certain drugs should definately not be legalized, like meth, coke/crack or heroin. the last thing we need is to create MORE addicts. Also, the doctors are responsible for creating a society of pillheads now, which is another dillemma.
Old 04-08-2010, 08:56 AM CommiePunk is offline  
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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln (1809-65), speech, 18 Dec. 1840, to Illinois House of Representatives

Here are some things we did when opium, meth, cocaine, and marijuana were legal(at various times regarding meth and coke).

We founded the colonies, fought the Revolutionary War and founded the United States, settled the west, built the railroad, established 50 states and state governments, went through the industrial revolution and established the US as a world economic and military power, fought WW1, started and established the labor movement that would bring the average American out of poverty for the first time by the 1950s, fought WW2, etc.

Anyone who thinks 'if drugs were legal the society would fall apart!' is merely regurgitating propaganda they were told when they were young. Propaganda re-enforced by social conditioning. It's all nonsense and history teaches this lesson clearly.

Meth, yes the dreaded meth, was sold legally over the counter for years. The nation didn't fall apart. Our soldiers were on meth in WW2 - GASP! -why didn't they come back as 'meth freaks'? Meth is used in our military today, it's just kept 'hush hush'. Much like psychotropic inhibiting anti depressants are prescribed for virtually anything and everything today, meth was prescribed that widely in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Why didn't the nation fall apart if that's what meth does? The prohibition work against meth in the 60's created this horrible 'street meth' that destroys so many lives today. Made with noxious, caustic chemicals, it's a dangerous substance. We created this stuff by our prohibition.

Anyone who wasn't a mindless victim of propaganda would also know that when alcohol prohibition laws were enacted, very dangerous 'bathtub gin' and 'rot gut whiskey' were common and they caused blindness, organ failure and death quite commonly. The same situation as meth and opium. I'm sure fools back then said 'see how dangerous alcohol is? good thing it's illegal'. Yes opium has been available over the counter for most of US history. Believe it or not, pharmaceutical heroin does zero, that's absolutely no damage to the human body. Nor does pharmaceutical cocaine or meth. We destroy the minds and bodies of millions of people needlessly in the US with our prohibition laws. If you take too much of any substance, water, oxygen, aspirin, alcohol, or any of the 'bad drugs' they can do damage to you. That makes no case about drug prohibition.

It's a shame humanity is so stupid, ignorant of history, weak-minded and so easily 'programmed' by propaganda. We are repeating exactly what we did in the prohibition of alcohol. Exactly the same reasons for the prohibition laws against alcohol - 'it's tearing our country apart!'. We have again created the largest, most violent, and powerful criminal organizations in the history of the world. They shoot up the streets in cities around America and innocent people are often caught in the crossfire. Created an unbelievably lucrative underground market to make those organizations rich. Instead of regulated and safe sources of substances, people's lives are destroyed by unsafe 'street' alternatives. Massive new wings of the government are created that trample on constitutional rights and militarize law enforcement in the US. And none of it stops anyone from doing what they want to do. The criminal organizations grow and wreak more havoc. It has no effect that is is healthy or helpful to anyone.

It's so sickening that the majority of people are such weak-minded fools. Otherwise this nonsense would never have happened.

I see the drug war in the US... When I was young I used to have questions about how Himmler, Goebbels, etc, and Hitler could have used ridiculous propaganda to control the minds of an entire nation. I don't have any of those questions any more. I see it right here in the US, and it's startling how powerful the stuff is.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:02 AM DrMabuse is offline  
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I agree with all that s said here.
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Old 04-08-2010, 04:26 PM Mandy Mansauce is offline  
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Old 04-08-2010, 04:26 PM Mandy Mansauce is offline  
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While it's true that people who avoid drugs for the reasons you listed would still avoid them if they were legalized/decriminalized....there would be an even larger number of the population that would try drugs for the first time simply out of curiosity or because they were never exposed to them before. Yes, even though it seems like "drugs are everywhere and anyone can get them"...there is still a large part of society that don't personally know anyone who does illegal drugs or know where to get them. I think this is the dilemma that lawmakers have when considering legalization...the hardcore users won't go simply for the government controlled "safe doses" and will continue to use the black market, and you would have first time users who otherwise wouldn't be..
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Originally Posted by CommiePunk View Post
also certain drugs should definately not be legalized, like meth, coke/crack or heroin. the last thing we need is to create MORE addicts. Also, the doctors are responsible for creating a society of pillheads now, which is another dillemma.


Legislation does not even have to legalize drugs, they just need to stop attacking society for choosing to use them. Its not their place to do so. Since drugs clearly cannot be exterminated altogether, and people continue to get their hands on them despite their illegality, their efforts would be much better spent trying to teach us how to use them safely and logically, if we choose to use them in the first place. With a more rational and natural approach of drugs, the drugs that are available would become cleaner and cleaner as time goes on. Its ridiculous how much money is spent putting people in jail for fucking marijuana, everyone knows it. It's a joke. 50 years from now we'll laugh at its stupidity just like we laugh at shit like "Reefer Madness" now.

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Originally Posted by DrMabuse View Post

Anyone who thinks 'if drugs were legal the society would fall apart!' is merely regurgitating propaganda Propaganda

Anyone who wasn't a mindless victim of propaganda

It's a shame humanity is so stupid, ignorant of history, weak-minded and so easily 'programmed' by propaganda.

It's so sickening that the majority of people are such weak-minded fools. Otherwise this nonsense would never have happened.

used ridiculous propaganda to control the minds of an entire nation.

If you would just tone it down a notch on shit like this people might actually take you seriously. Overall it was a good post and we're obviously more or less in agreement. And of course it is all mindless propaganda.I dont know if i'd exactly call it "mind control". Much of the social stigma associated with pot has vanished, its not really looked down upon by most people... yet its still illegal and we still can go to jail for owning it?
But... you know, even if youre right, when you go around screaming at everyone "Baaahhh! Sheep! Robots, all of you!" the actual valid points youre making are overshadowed and no ones gonna listen. But people should listen because this problem affects us deeply and the solution is actually a relatively simple one. So, ya know... just think about that.

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Debate could be more heated
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:35 AM Golf(e) is offline  
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If you would just tone it down a notch on shit like this people might actually take you seriously. Overall it was a good post and we're obviously more or less in agreement. And of course it is all mindless propaganda.I dont know if i'd exactly call it "mind control". Much of the social stigma associated with pot has vanished, its not really looked down upon by most people... yet its still illegal and we still can go to jail for owning it?
But... you know, even if youre right, when you go around screaming at everyone "Baaahhh! Sheep! Robots, all of you!" the actual valid points youre making are overshadowed and no ones gonna listen. But people should listen because this problem affects us deeply and the solution is actually a relatively simple one. So, ya know... just think about that.

I have.

You, like most people, may not really grasp the definition of propaganda. You have a more socially defined vague grasp of it maybe, therefore you hold it to be some kind of an 'extreme' or 'extremist' term. Granted it's often used that way in ignorance, but I was not doing so.

I did think about the terms I used, and there are completely accurate in the way I used them. If you think different use of terms is going to somehow enable accurate information, or the truth, to seep into a mind that has been 'programmed' by propaganda that's been reinforced by social conditioning, you are sorely mistaken.

The average American, and citizens of many countries have an opinion with all the intellectual depth and reflection of: "Drug are bad, mmmkay?" Zero critical thinking, blind and total ignorance of even recent(last 70 years) history. Yes I'm serious about that, it's not a mocking jab, it's an absolutely accurate representation of reality.

The points I made above, and many more, have been made in reasonable ways, by reasonable people, using 'soft' terminology for decades. All to no effect.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:55 AM DrMabuse is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by DrMabuse View Post
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln (1809-65), speech, 18 Dec. 1840, to Illinois House of Representatives

Here are some things we did when opium, meth, cocaine, and marijuana were legal(at various times regarding meth and coke).... snip

.

Best Pit Post of the year.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:05 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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joemama
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Best Pit Post of the year.
Yeah, I agree with that somewhat but not totally. For example: alcohol is legal yet drinking and driving and getting drunk and beating up your wife is not. The vast majority of people who drink alcohol don't have a problem using it responsibly, but the few who are out of control cause society to make and tolerate laws such as ever decreasing BAC levels for a DUI, and open container laws for passengers in a vehicle that aren't driving, open containers on city streets etc..

If pot were legalized then similar laws could be used....must be 21, smoke only where tobacco smokers are allowed to smoke, and not have over a certain level in your system while driving/operating machinery etc..

On the other hand there is shit out there that is downright dangerous and destructive and there really isn't such a thing as "responsible use"...and therein lies the problem when it comes to considering legalization...what is included and what isn't?
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:41 PM joemama is offline  
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Best Pit Post of the year.

It's amazing how much got done when you could send your 10 year old to the general store to buy your alcohol, tobacco, morphine, cocaine, and tincture of cannabis for less than a dollar.
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Old 04-09-2010, 02:29 PM pyramid is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
Yeah, I agree with that somewhat but not totally. For example: alcohol is legal yet drinking and driving and getting drunk and beating up your wife is not. The vast majority of people who drink alcohol don't have a problem using it responsibly, but the few who are out of control cause society to make and tolerate laws such as ever decreasing BAC levels for a DUI, and open container laws for passengers in a vehicle that aren't driving, open containers on city streets etc..

If pot were legalized then similar laws could be used....must be 21, smoke only where tobacco smokers are allowed to smoke, and not have over a certain level in your system while driving/operating machinery etc..

On the other hand there is shit out there that is downright dangerous and destructive and there really isn't such a thing as "responsible use"...and therein lies the problem when it comes to considering legalization...what is included and what isn't?


So whats the penalty for driving while a jackass. Do we have a jackass test? Driving while stupid? If you have an accident you take an IQ test and if you score below a certain threshold you are fined more than the smart guy?

How about we make the fine/punishment fit the ACT. If you run over a motorcycle in broad daylight because you make a left turn without looking I dont care if you are stone cold sober. It's unreasonable to let you drive anymore no matter if you had 3/4's of a beer with dinner or are just too stupid and careless or senile to be on the road. If you are too busy slapping your kids because they wont be quiet while you drive and you run a red light and t-bone a school bus you go to prison for criminal negligence. You do it twice and you get life.

As far as drug X being to hazardous to legalize. Thats bunk. Who decides? Most people educated by attitudes they see on TV would put Heroin in that category and not be cognizant of the fact that until the "darkies" jazz culture made it popular it and morphine were used to treat alcoholism.
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Old 04-10-2010, 04:19 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmaboo
You, like most people, may not really grasp the definition of propaganda. You have a more socially defined vague grasp of it maybe, therefore you hold it to be some kind of an 'extreme' or 'extremist' term. Granted it's often used that way in ignorance, but I was not doing so.

I did think about the terms I used, and there are completely accurate in the way I used them. If you think different use of terms is going to somehow enable accurate information, or the truth, to seep into a mind that has been 'programmed' by propaganda that's been reinforced by social conditioning, you are sorely mistaken.
No man, it is propaganda, clearly. I understand that. I think most people understand that. Prpoaganda is used for all sorts of things, not just drugs. Its a very popular device. Politics, you know.
I think it sounds a bit silly to say (over and over) that people are programmed. Even you have to put it in quotations when saying it. And its not exactly wrong. Peoples ways of thinking are deeply affected by the ideas they become comfortable with, and half of those ideas are straight Bullshit. But not everyone is "stupid" and "mindless" and "programmed". The same way those people were convinced of their wrong ideas, they can be made to realize the right ideas. If you speak earnestly, with real concern, and not in frustration, people are more apt to listen. Certainly members on genmay.
Fucking try it you weak minded fool. (see, its less convincing when i say it that way, isnt it?)

Quote:
The average American, and citizens of many countries have an opinion with all the intellectual depth and reflection of: "Drug are bad, mmmkay?" Zero critical thinking, blind and total ignorance of even recent(last 70 years) history. Yes I'm serious about that, it's not a mocking jab, it's an absolutely accurate representation of reality.
The average american has a faulty attitude regarding drugs, I would agree. Its not fair to say that the average american has no intellectual depth or ability for critical thinking. If you can assert that, please provide some accompanying information so it makes sense.
I think the majority of people are decent and reasonable on the whole, if not a bit confused for the time being. There have been social revolutions before and more will occur. Another enlightening, perhaps. If you show patience and quell your frustration, you will do more to help the fight. Help the fight.
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Old 04-10-2010, 04:58 PM Golf(e) is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
It's amazing how much got done when you could send your 10 year old to the general store to buy your alcohol, tobacco, morphine, cocaine, and tincture of cannabis for less than a dollar.

I know right?



Anyway there are lots of examples, ie

This country has some of the steepest penalties for DUI

This country also is one of the highest for rates of DUI involved deaths and accidents

Hmmm. Could it be that education and a cohessive community upbringing that teaches you to be responsible is better than just farming money following digits on a hend held device?
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Old 04-10-2010, 04:59 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Fucking try it you weak minded fool. (see, its less convincing when i say it that way, isnt it?)

It's not convincing because you are wrong. Not because the way you said it.
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:03 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Go on.
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