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yolo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allnighte View Post
isnt life in prison still worse than a quick painless death?
prison ain't all people think it is, the prison rapes are horrible. Many go in to prison HIV negative, and come out HIV positive, if they do get out.
Old 01-10-2008, 01:59 PM yolo is offline  
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rizla
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
How am I backtracking? I was discussing the death penalty in general as a concept, and in places where the legal system is more aggressive it clearly has an impact on violent crime. Did you notice how I said "societies with stiffer penalties", meaning I'm not just discussing the US, or did you just read my first sentance and get an ultra-huge, anti-death penalty boner? Obviously there's still a relatively high murder rate in the US, but that doesn't mean the death penalty as a concept is ineffective.

I follow politics, I've watched debates on this topic where people claim it's not a deterrent at all, that's not news to me. You want to play your stupid little "let me show you a study game"? Ok, I'll play that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061100406.html

Ooooo, look at me! I found a study that proves the opposite end of the argument so I must be correct! And it only took 5 seconds of searching on Google to pull it off!

I'm aware of those studies, and I've looked at their methodology, and I have actually read them, unlike yourself. I've also read the critiques of them.

For example, the Clemson/Emory study cited in the news article concludes the death penalty would result in 18 fewer murders. That's great, but the margin of error in the study is placed at +-10. Not only that, but they include data that skews the results, such as clearly nonpremeditated muders, and explain it away by stating it's impossible to account for every possible problem in the data.

Other studies supporting deterrence rely on the coincidence between moratoriums on the death penalty and increased homicide rates in states like illinois and texas. These at best, rely on correlation.

You can read all this yourself, without forcing me to explain it like you're a child.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:01 PM rizla is offline  
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SoulChaser
 
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but I would prefer that he be locked up for the rest of his life where he couldn't hurt anyone else.

People buried in the ground do not hurt anyone

The death penalty should not be about revenge
The death penalty should not be about justice

The death penalty should be used to make sure a criminal who has commited an atroscious act can not commit such an act again.
Old 01-10-2008, 02:46 PM SoulChaser is offline  
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Originally Posted by SoulChaser View Post
People buried in the ground do not hurt anyone

The death penalty should not be about revenge
The death penalty should not be about justice

The death penalty should be used to make sure a criminal who has commited an atroscious act can not commit such an act again.

But if lifetime incarceration achieves this, what's the point?
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:57 PM rizla is offline  
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Well I didn't say that, or even imply it.

You did imply it by saying which is worse shouldn't matter. I just took it to an absurd level.

And I understand the argument that the death penalty is a fundamentally different kind of punishment. But I do think it still merits consideration when some murderers can still lead "rock star" lives of a sort while in jail. Many of them no doubt begin to lead relatively normal lives after adjusting to their environment. If this is the case, then I think death would be a more fitting punishment.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:33 PM mathlete is offline  
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There are obviously people who have committed crimes so heinous that they have no further value to offer this planet by their existence; yet, I still oppose the death penalty for two reasons.

1. Innocents are executed. Evidence can never be one-hundred percent accurate and death is final. A man imprisoned for twenty years can still be exonerated and returned to the real world; a man who has already been executed does not have this luxury.

2. The death penalty increases the risk of death for victims. Why? Imagine the punishment for robbery is death. A man goes into a convenience store and robs it; unfortunately, the clerk and the customers in the store get a good look at him. To increase his chances of escape he executes the clerk and all the customers.

The rationality of the criminal comes into play here. If the punishment for simple robbery is death -- the ultimate punishment -- then the criminal loses nothing by executing the witnesses, and, in fact, may actually gain an advantage by leaving no witnesses. Because there is no greater punishment he could receive there is no reason for him to leave the victims alive.

Rape is not a capital crime for this very reason. The penalty for rape is kept low so that victims are afforded a greater chance of survival and, also, so there is a greater chance of identifying and capturing the perpetrator.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:09 PM Doctor Octagon is offline  
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SoulChaser
 
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But if lifetime incarceration achieves this, what's the point?

no guarantee, escape is always a possible, chance of repeating the offence is always high with serial murderers and rapists.
Old 01-10-2008, 04:10 PM SoulChaser is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulChaser View Post
no guarantee, escape is always a possible, chance of repeating the offence is always high with serial murderers and rapists.

I can assure you that the statistical probability of a prisoner serving a life sentence in a high-security facility and escaping is a complete non-issue to anyone that researches in the field of corrections.

It's a sensationalist argument that has absolutely no bearing in the real world.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:19 PM Doctor Octagon is offline  
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Originally Posted by Doctor Octagon View Post
Rape is not a capital crime for this very reason. The penalty for rape is kept low so that victims are afforded a greater chance of survival and, also, so there is a greater chance of identifying and capturing the perpetrator.

QFT

If the state kills rapists it only increases the risk of rape being followed by murder.
Old 01-10-2008, 04:48 PM bingstudent is offline  
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#54  

g
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Originally Posted by rizla View Post
But if lifetime incarceration achieves this, what's the point?

$
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:59 PM g is offline  
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I'm glad I live in Montana then.
Old 01-11-2008, 12:42 AM Intuitiv is offline  
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Originally Posted by Board-Senseless View Post
That's right - it's nothing more than legalized killing. aren't we as a people - evolved enough to get past an eye for an eye?

It isn't about vengeance for vengeance' sake. It's about saying "This person is a hunter and predator of other people. That is an obvious detriment to organized society and it is time for this person to be removed from the planet."

It is pure logic. People whose actions harm society and its members are to be eliminated, for the benefit of that society. There is no moral issue. There is no 'sinking to the level of the criminal'. There is only the logical preservation of people and the permanent reconciliation of that logic through execution.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:19 AM Sarcasmo is offline  
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rizla
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Originally Posted by T00L View Post
$

It costs less to imprison someone for life than it does to keep them on death row and execute them.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:25 AM rizla is offline  
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rizla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmo View Post
It isn't about vengeance for vengeance' sake. It's about saying "This person is a hunter and predator of other people. That is an obvious detriment to organized society and it is time for this person to be removed from the planet."

It is pure logic. People whose actions harm society and its members are to be eliminated, for the benefit of that society. There is no moral issue. There is no 'sinking to the level of the criminal'. There is only the logical preservation of people and the permanent reconciliation of that logic through execution.

Life imprisonment effectively removes them from society. There is no "logic" to the death penalty, only moral outrage.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:26 AM rizla is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rizla View Post
Life imprisonment effectively removes them from society. There is no "logic" to the death penalty, only moral outrage.

Life imprisonment is completely illogical. Why would someone who is harmful to society be supported by that society for the rest of their life? Why should we, as victims, further sacrifice and pay to care for them? Why bear the additional burden? Execution is nothing but logical. Try them, convict them, kill them. No death row, no life imprisonment. Only guilt and death. Quick, effortless, and far more humane than their deviance.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:57 AM Sarcasmo is offline  
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