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Vendetta
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thoooose legs are pretty bad
Old 07-24-2012, 07:41 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
That doesn't actually make sense. Our PCs have a whole lot of what you're calling electrical complexity. They seem pretty fucking reliable. Also everyone and their mother can swap out a ram stick should it fail, which isn't that often and usually not based on mileage. I foresee the same thing with EVs. It takes actual skill and coordination to do a valve job for example. Plus mechanical parts are guaranteed to wear out at some point, while solid state electronics are not.

Case in point my GFs dad just finished converting a Saturn LS into an EV. Once you spend some time around one you'll understand just how exponentially simpler EVs are. Very few points of failure... no fluids, no pumps, no sensors, no compression, no spark, etc.





i dunno, a lot of fluids would still be there imo

gone: engine oil, tranmission fluid
still there, power steering, brake, battery, coolant of some sort (electric motors still get hot)
Old 07-24-2012, 08:41 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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#32  

asa
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
i dunno, a lot of fluids would still be there imo

gone: engine oil, tranmission fluid
still there, power steering, brake, battery, coolant of some sort (electric motors still get hot)

i'd be willing to say that any sort of transmission you are going to have is going to have fluid in it
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:01 PM asa is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
i dunno, a lot of fluids would still be there imo

gone: engine oil, tranmission fluid
still there, power steering, brake, battery, coolant of some sort (electric motors still get hot)

Steering isn't hydraulic already in most recent combustion engine cars like Porch and BMW. That eliminates a pump and all the hoses and the actuator. So far the only cooling I've seen on EVs has to do with the power modulator. it has huge aluminum heatsinks and a pair of 120mm PC fans. Nothing I'd personally worry about!

On a combustion engine you have explosions going off right next to water jackets and oil galleys, all being separated from air and thousands of PSI by gaskets. A valve has to open and close 40 times per second at 5,000 RPM - It's mind boggling what happens at 7500 or higher. Honestly it's amazing that cars work as well as they do.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:28 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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#34  

dio
 
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so you're an expert mechanical engineer that knows all about cars, specifically electric cars now?

what you think and what is reality have never been the same thing.

edit: as long as it has moving parts, there will be wear and someone will need to be able to fix it. will there be less mechanics? sure. will they go away entirely? not a chance. you even mention that tires and batteries will have to be changed... well who do you think is doing that for 99% of the population? its not going to be the girl who bags your groceries thats for sure. the nature of the job will change somewhat, but it won't disappear entirely. regardless its a very very very very long way off.

your reading comprehension is so low

stop bringing down the intelligence levels of my threads
Old 07-24-2012, 09:57 PM dio is offline  
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dio
 
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Originally Posted by Jehannum View Post
Right now, most of what mechanics do is drivetrain, and not powertrain related.

You think that electric motors are going to keep Danny Dumbfuck from planting his car in the neighbor's hedge when it's raining out? No, and the same suspension damage will have to be repaired as if Danny had a 4 banger.

Mechanics didn't go away when fuel injection became common (thus negating the need for quarterly tuneups), either.

As long as we still have to transmit power from the motor to the wheels along the various shafts, and power other systems for the car, like radios, air conditioners, and lighting, there's always going to be wear that will require periodic maintenance done by a professional (or at least a motivated amateur) to keep things working correctly.

The issue of people crashing won't really be alleviated until cars start driving themselves.

But are most mechanics really kept in business by repairing cars from crashes? I was under the impression that most mechanics make most of their wage by running maintnence on engines, transmissions, and drivetrain.

There is also another point I forgot to mention, but I do think at some point we are going to see electric car designs move to have the actual electric motor in the wheel: http://www.proteanelectric.com/

There literally won't be a drive train in a design like that. There won't be a single gear, there won't be a single shaft anywhere.

I suspect electric cars will go this route because it is the most efficient, no energy is lost when transferring through a drive train. It's just a series of magnets directly turning the wheel. It also the most simple, and has the least of components likely to fail. Plus is automatically gives you AWD.

Literally the only thing that will fail in a design like this is the bearings at some point. which if they ever start using electromagnetic bearings, then that would be no longer true.

Of course the brakes will fail at some point, but motor-in-wheel designs are a really great place to use electromagnetic braking. Meaning no brake pads, just a reverse magnetic current would stop the car.

In a car with in-wheel motors, with magnetic bearings and magnetic braking. There is no metal to metal contact anywhere in the entire car and the only moving part is the tire and the wheel hub the tire is attached to. Such a car will only need batteries and tires changed. That is unless we come up with some kind nuclear source of power and do away with batteries, or have them run on hydrogren fuel cells.

Of course people may crash the cars... but aside from tire and battery changing, that would be the only thing for mechanics to do.

Last edited by dio; 07-24-2012 at 10:28 PM..
Old 07-24-2012, 10:21 PM dio is offline  
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#36  

dio
 
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you're a fucking idiot
starters go out on thousands of cars every day, and those motors are only used for 20 seconds max two or three times a day

entropy is a bitch

How many of those starters are cheap brushed electric motors?

Cheap brushed electric motors die all the time.

Top quality brush less motors I've never really heard of one dying, and I am basing this viewpoint on my time spent in the RC Helicopter community. I've never heard of anyone's brushless motor dying in their electric helicopter unless they set up something wrong and overheated the thing for too long.

Last edited by dio; 07-24-2012 at 10:38 PM..
Old 07-24-2012, 10:26 PM dio is offline  
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Mechanics will be with us as long as GM and Chrysler keep putting their quality vehicles on the road, even if they go all electric
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:34 PM grjr is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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How many of those starters are cheap brushed electric motors?

Cheap brushed electric motors die all the time.

Top quality brush less motors I've never really heard of one dying, and I am basing this viewpoint on my time spent in the RC Helicopter community. I've never heard of anyone's brushless motor dying in their electric helicopter unless they set up something wrong and overheated the thing for too long.
you use logic like a 14 year old uses his cock for the first time.
Old 07-24-2012, 10:59 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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you use logic like a 14 year old uses his cock for the first time.
I can understand the powers that be keeping him around to help fill the retard quota, but letting him make threads is ridiculous.
Old 07-24-2012, 11:21 PM ?psalus is offline  
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#40  

Jehannum
 
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Originally Posted by dio View Post
The issue of people crashing won't really be alleviated until cars start driving themselves.

But are most mechanics really kept in business by repairing cars from crashes? I was under the impression that most mechanics make most of their wage by running maintnence on engines, transmissions, and drivetrain.

There is also another point I forgot to mention, but I do think at some point we are going to see electric car designs move to have the actual electric motor in the wheel: http://www.proteanelectric.com/

There literally won't be a drive train in a design like that. There won't be a single gear, there won't be a single shaft anywhere.

I suspect electric cars will go this route because it is the most efficient, no energy is lost when transferring through a drive train. It's just a series of magnets directly turning the wheel. It also the most simple, and has the least of components likely to fail. Plus is automatically gives you AWD.

Literally the only thing that will fail in a design like this is the bearings at some point. which if they ever start using electromagnetic bearings, then that would be no longer true.

Of course the brakes will fail at some point, but motor-in-wheel designs are a really great place to use electromagnetic braking. Meaning no brake pads, just a reverse magnetic current would stop the car.

In a car with in-wheel motors, with magnetic bearings and magnetic braking. There is no metal to metal contact anywhere in the entire car and the only moving part is the tire and the wheel hub the tire is attached to. Such a car will only need batteries and tires changed. That is unless we come up with some kind nuclear source of power and do away with batteries, or have them run on hydrogren fuel cells.

Of course people may crash the cars... but aside from tire and battery changing, that would be the only thing for mechanics to do.
0) you have no concept of what a mechanic does, so you're shooting in the dark.

1) you would still have shafts in the "1 motor per wheel" situation, because you really, really don't want to have 4 big fat motors as unsprung weight, from a vehicle dynamics perspective. What will likely happen is two motors, one for each axle in AWD, or 1 motor on an axle for FWD or RWD.

2) There will always be transmissions. There isn't a single motor that will, at a 1:1 ratio, take a car with standard sized wheels up to 85MPH from a dead stop in its optimal range. Assuming a 25" wheel/tire diameter, the RPM at 85MPH is about 1100. By way of comparison, the motor in the Tesla Roadster makes its best power at 10000RPM (with a redline of 14000).

2) you still have to damp the car (suspension and bushings, both wear items), provide for climate control, entertainment, safety, and comfort (consumable filters, cheap shit motors, tracks requiring lubrication, etc), and the occasional alignment, balancing, and rotation of the tires.

3) Most cars sold today with ICEs will run a hundred thousand miles before needing a major service, so it's not like there's an overwhelming "non-damage" case for recurring maintenance now, and mechanics still exist. In fact, given that battery packs' lifetime revolves around discharge cycles, it's likely that they will require major service significantly before 100,000 miles, which gives mechanics a more frequent job than they have now.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:24 AM Jehannum is offline  
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#41  

mekilljoydammit
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On top of all the other objections, it's also just a nonfactor in that electric cars aren't something that actually makes sense for general use without new methods of power generation and a complete rebuild of our infrastructure. If everyone drove one, power generation would have to (from the last I calculated and off the top of my head) more than triple. You can't do much more hydroelectric than there is, we haven't built new nuclear plants in years, and other sources aren't in a state to make more than a couple percent of the total... so you know what that means? Burning coal, and stringing a lot more power lines, and the cost of electricity going massively up to pay for all of it... I mean sooner or later the subsidies for electric cars would have to expire and companies would have to stop selling them at a loss for PR purposes. That's ignoring all the issues with the production of batteries and motors, though possibly a non-China source of rare earth elements may come up that make motors a bit cheaper to do. So fundamentally, deployed enmasse, they're not actually better for the environment (worse in a lot of ways) and they won't be cheaper than a liquid fuelled car of equivalent development. Ever notice efficiency-style hybrids and electric cars tend to be built on lightweight, aerodynamic platforms compared to normal cars?

Barring some breakthroughs in power generation and a few other areas, I'd be willing to wager that we're driving liquid fuel vehicles for the forseeable future... or until they're outlawed, or rising sea levels lead to the collapse of civilization.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:58 PM mekilljoydammit is offline  
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#42  

Vendetta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannum View Post
0) you have no concept of what a mechanic does, so you're shooting in the dark.

1) you would still have shafts in the "1 motor per wheel" situation, because you really, really don't want to have 4 big fat motors as unsprung weight, from a vehicle dynamics perspective. What will likely happen is two motors, one for each axle in AWD, or 1 motor on an axle for FWD or RWD.

2) There will always be transmissions. There isn't a single motor that will, at a 1:1 ratio, take a car with standard sized wheels up to 85MPH from a dead stop in its optimal range. Assuming a 25" wheel/tire diameter, the RPM at 85MPH is about 1100. By way of comparison, the motor in the Tesla Roadster makes its best power at 10000RPM (with a redline of 14000).

2) you still have to damp the car (suspension and bushings, both wear items), provide for climate control, entertainment, safety, and comfort (consumable filters, cheap shit motors, tracks requiring lubrication, etc), and the occasional alignment, balancing, and rotation of the tires.

3) Most cars sold today with ICEs will run a hundred thousand miles before needing a major service, so it's not like there's an overwhelming "non-damage" case for recurring maintenance now, and mechanics still exist. In fact, given that battery packs' lifetime revolves around discharge cycles, it's likely that they will require major service significantly before 100,000 miles, which gives mechanics a more frequent job than they have now.

you are wasting your time with dio
Old 07-25-2012, 04:50 PM Vendetta is offline  
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#43  

gee
MY TITLE ISNT LONG ENOUGH
 
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you are wasting your time with dio
He's making the world stupider. I don't know how many other forums he posts on, but it scares me to think of the countless hours wasted by intelligent people who have tried to argue the guy, and the far more productive things that could have been done instead.
Old 07-25-2012, 05:24 PM gee is offline  
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?psalus
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you are wasting your time with dio
It just hit me that you both have the same first name.
Old 07-25-2012, 06:26 PM ?psalus is offline  
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