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möbiustrip
 
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WELL MAYBE SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN --

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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
Yeah... not what I"m talking about in this case.

Women grabbed in the parking garage (Twice) and into the bushes on outskirts of campus.
Not to mention one girl was kidnapped and murdered.

Oh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renork View Post
Not directed at you Zang.

These are realistic dangers and those of us advocating CCW permit holders to carry on campus are not saying that every woman on campus should or is likely to get a permit. What we are saying is that it is wrong to deny them that right of effective self defense should they qualify and choose to exercise it.
On the other hand it's wrong to put her in that position knowing her jealous ex-boyfriend is 4138% more likely to get a CCW. Statistics are our friend. And he's 867-5309% more likely to stalk her than she is to be violently assaulted.

Do I think the prototypical frat douche would jump through whatever minimal (remember, we can't make this unduly difficult) hoops are required, just for the cool factor of flashing his piece? Yes.

I know this isn't a democracy, but ask women which way they prefer it. You give up the "right to self defense" damn near every time you walk into any building, why is it such a pet peeve on campus?
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:27 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
WELL MAYBE SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN --



Oh.

On the other hand it's wrong to put her in that position knowing her jealous ex-boyfriend is 4138% more likely to get a CCW. Statistics are our friend. And he's 867-5309% more likely to stalk her than she is to be violently assaulted.

Do I think the prototypical frat douche would jump through whatever minimal (remember, we can't make this unduly difficult) hoops are required, just for the cool factor of flashing his piece? Yes.

I know this isn't a democracy, but ask women which way they prefer it. You give up the "right to self defense" damn near every time you walk into any building, why is it such a pet peeve on campus?


so the felony stalker ex boyfriend is going to abide by the law and not carry because it's against the law.
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:32 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post

On the other hand it's wrong to put her in that position knowing her jealous ex-boyfriend is 4138% more likely to get a CCW. Statistics are our friend. And he's 867-5309% more likely to stalk her than she is to be violently assaulted.


This is ridiculous. What is your rational behind saying her jealous ex-boyfriend is going to get a CCW permit, ill ignore your obviously made up numbers. Also, if he is going to use his gun for a crime against her why go through the hoops to get a permit with the intent to do something illegal with the gun? This line of argument makes no sense what so ever.

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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post

Do I think the prototypical frat douche would jump through whatever minimal (remember, we can't make this unduly difficult) hoops are required, just for the cool factor of flashing his piece? Yes.

Colleges are not prisons, students are not confined to the campus 24/7, there is no reason to suspect allowing students to carry on campus would cause a statistically significant increase in the number of CCW permit holders on campuses. If the "prototypical frat douche" wants to get a CCW permit just for the "cool factor of flashing his piece" and was capable of doing so why would he not have already done it for the times he is not on campus?
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:40 PM Renork is offline  
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Say police catch a peeping Tom on campus with a gun. I believe the charge needs to be more serious than "driving without a license." To my knowledge that isn't legally feasible if we allow CCW.
Why not? Plenty of crimes increase in severity depending on the circumstances. Its a greater crime to have drugs near a church or school, rob someone while wearing a hood or mask, carry a weapon with intent to use it maliciously, drive with open containers, commit crimes while wearing body armor, etc. I imagine its quite easy to put some language in that makes any carry license void while commiting certain crimes. I'm not sure what problem there is that you're worried about though.

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Kazansky pointed out there's a level of firepower no reasonable person needs to carry in public. He got shouted down over concealment. It wasn't relevant to his point, which is hard to argue with.

We've invented some amazingly large guns. Not controlling them means, at minimum, the police have to be armed like the A-Team. Go a little more paranoid and we're dealing with a ED-209 scenario.
Is there any evidence that shows we can control guns any more than we can control drugs?

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Rampage shootings seem about as frequent as airplane crashes. Making as significant a security change as CCW for "prevention" in either case is reactionary. I would feel better if the pro-CCW crowd thoughtfully analyzed the potential unintended consequences instead of holding protests like a bunch of hippie ######s.
Yet when I go to fly I have to take off my shoes, get the lecture on crash safety, and pour out my bottle of water. It seems like we take significant precautions for safety on flight even if the risk is low just because what is at stake is important, much like concealed carry. It seems like wanting something more effective than my fists to protect myself as I go about my daily life is far less ridiculous than taking off my shoes because some nut tried to light his on fire once.

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If metal detectors are an acceptable substitute for campus concealed carry I'm all for them.
Assuming you've been to a college campus in your life you realize the suggestion of metal detectors on a college campus is nothing short of ridiculous and still does nothing to stop people from simply being physically overpowered or assaulted in parking lots, see robbery and rape.

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But I don't think the pro-CCW movement will be satisfied with that, which reinforces my feeling this is more akin to the "right" to yell fire in a crowded theater.
Again we come back to using our imaginations instead of looking at the real world data. Can you cite some numbers showing concealed carry to be a danger or are you just playing make believe?

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Basically my feeling, and I think I speak for a lot of people, is that any law which makes gun ownership normative does more harm than good, because assholes and idiots outnumber ethical, responsible people by a wide margin.
I used to generally believe this to be true but after researching the topic as it pertains to guns I have been swayed the other way. My guess would be that the "bad people" in life generally don't turn that way over night and wind up doing something that disqualifies them from legal gun ownership or from having a permit early and often in life.

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I don't want to take anyone's guns, and I want to be able to obtain one if the shit goes down.
No elitism there.

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In the meantime high barriers to entry seem like a good idea. Idiots' and criminals' guns trickled down from somewhere.
Like all the legal heroin in this country that trickled down into criminals hands? Why would you believe its possible to control firearms when we can't even control drugs. Drugs are a consumable product that we spend a ton of money on trying to control and of course can't. Guns are a durable product easily made in any high school level machine shop. It seems like hoping to ever control them is quite wishful. Further I loathe the idea of high cost of entry. The people in the low income/high crime areas of town are the ones that need to be able to purchase and carry firearms the most. A lot of gun control goes back to the idea of disarming poor blacks and I find that idea fairly disgusting.

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You missed me here. So we should abolish DUI laws? Clearly they don't stop anyone from doing what he wants to do.

The same goes for all preventative laws and regulations.
I think anyone who views DUI laws as preventative is a fool, a look at how often people are repeat offenders should tip you off to that. Laws like that are punitive in nature. We get the drunk off the road for a while. You don't chose to not rape women or not drive drunk because it would be against the law, your own morality and sense of responsiblity is the only thing that keeps you from breaking those laws. The same goes for carrying concealed. The guy that intends to shoot a room full of innocent people doesn't care that carrying that gun onto campus isn't legal. Thats like suggesting a bank robber wouldn't speed in his get away car because it would be breaking the law. The only thing those laws do is keep people like me who don't wish to harm anyone from carrying. What would punishing me for carrying on campus do for society when I wasn't a danger in the first place?

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Do I think the prototypical frat douche would jump through whatever minimal (remember, we can't make this unduly difficult) hoops are required, just for the cool factor of flashing his piece? Yes.
Again I repeat, carry is legal in some states on college campus already. Is there any evidence of your imaged outcomes actually being true. The fraternity douche can already get a carry permit in most states even if he can't carry it on campus, are there numbers that shows people (fraternity douche or otherwise) are doing this with their concealed carry guns? If people are't doing it on college campuses where its allowed, and people aren't doing it anywhere else they can carry, why do you allowing it on more college campuses will be different?




This is a topic that always surprises me. There is an absolute mountain of data from states that allow concealed carry, combined totals of decades of data. Yet when it comes time for serious discussion people would prefer to use their imagination to guess how people will behave rather than just look and see how people in the exact same circumstances really have behaved.
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Last edited by Soybomb; 04-25-2008 at 02:38 PM..
Old 04-25-2008, 02:34 PM Soybomb is offline  
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nice post Soybomb
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:39 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Thanks, I noticed some typos I wished I'd spotted in my rush to bang it out but my posts on this topic usually go without reply (not surprisingly when the crux of all that is "quit guessing, the data is out there, put up or shut up") so I don't feel too bad about them.
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:17 PM Soybomb is offline  
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Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
nice post Soybomb

2nded Best part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soybomb
What would punishing me for carrying on campus do for society when I wasn't a danger in the first place?

You hit pretty much everything I would say...few things I wanted to say that you missed, though:

Quote:
In the meantime high barriers to entry seem like a good idea. Idiots' and criminals' guns trickled down from somewhere.

Just curious; are you one of those people who are pro-gun control and anti-border wall?

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I think I still have the spreadsheet if you're interested, but the bottom line was that even if you cherry-pick the worst number to look at, DC trades places year to year in the top ten with e.g. Gary, Detroit, Miami and Compton.
And that top ten ranking doesn't make it a "hotbed of death and assrape?" Christ, top ten of any of those categories would be bad, but for it to place in the top ten in many, I'd say it earns the distinction that you said it didn't.

Quote:
Rampage shootings seem about as frequent as airplane crashes
How many have to helplessly die before you allow them the choice to defend themselves? Seeing as you'd rather not spend any effort to prevent any more "rampage shootings," do you think that we should stop investigating better ways of aviation safety for the same reason, too? What if the aviation industry played airline crashes like colleges play school shootings? If they did, they would focus their attention on a wicked reaction plan to a crash, which delivers recovery and emergency vehicles to any crash site on Earth within minutes, but make no effort to stop the crash before it happened.

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would feel better if the pro-CCW crowd thoughtfully analyzed the potential unintended consequences instead of holding protests like a bunch of hippie ######s.
Like Soybomb said, do you mean the "unintended consequences" that you predict would happen with no basis? Your fear mongering is EXACTLY what the opponents of CCW did prior to it being approved in each of the 48 states that allow it. Not one became a state of "wild west shootouts" among drunks. Not one repealed its CCW law because of excessive crime.

I can see absolutely no "unintended consequence" of allowing CCW holders to carry on campus. There's no evidence that they would somehow become more irresponsible, or have more accidents, as there's actually evidence to the contrary of those ideas by the schools that already allow CCW on campus, which have had no incidents with firearms misuse.

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Maybe, maybe not, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take, and as an employee, my vote counts more than yours.
Where are you an employee of that makes your "vote" count more than mine?
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:12 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Originally Posted by Soybomb View Post
Why not? Plenty of crimes increase in severity depending on the circumstances. Its a greater crime to have drugs near a church or school, drive with open containers...
Forget churches, I don't think that's true.

The things you mention are crimes because of specific laws banning them. You're suggesting we can charge people with breaking these laws after we take them off the books. Driving with an open container doesn't suddenly become illegal during a DUI stop.

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Is there any evidence that shows we can control guns any more than we can control drugs?
Of course not -- I suggest we stop trying altogether. Criminals don't obey laws anyway. People are either born good or evil and never base decisions on probable outcomes, so we could save a whole SHITLOAD of money with anarchy.

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It seems like we take significant precautions for safety on flight even if the risk is low just because what is at stake is important
The we've had to go through to board a plane since 9/11 is to reassure us someone can prevent another one. Personally I don't think any of it is conducive to keeping a jackass with a fork from crashing one into the Pentagon.

If pressed, I believe many of the campus carry folks would admit believing we should allow CCW on airplanes too. While I don't think the federal government necessarily ought to be in the business of passenger safety, the idea that an armed plane is a safer plane is absolutely tit-salad ridiculous.

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Assuming you've been to a college campus in your life you realize the suggestion of metal detectors on a college campus is nothing short of ridiculous and still does nothing to stop people from simply being physically overpowered or assaulted in parking lots, see robbery and rape.
Wasn't my suggestion, but thanks. It's good enough three months earlier when the same kids are in high school, but now "ridiculous?"

C'mon, you just see political leverage with "public property" and you're trying to jam your foot in the door. Go bitch at McDonald's, 7/11, or anywhere else people get shot.

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Again we come back to using our imaginations instead of looking at the real world data. Can you cite some numbers showing concealed carry to be a danger or are you just playing make believe?
You misunderstood fire / crowded theater. I'm saying it's an abstract right people demand for the sake of having it.

I don't need to demonstrate that it would be more dangerous. You need to demonstrate it would be safer.

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My guess would be that the "bad people" in life generally don't turn that way over night and wind up doing something that disqualifies them from legal gun ownership or from having a permit early and often in life.
Well if we're talking about college massacres I can shoot that guess down in a heartbeat. My point stands.

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No elitism there.
Don't take this personally: the elitism is in supposing your tourist / customer ass has any business deciding what is and ain't permitted in my workplace. A public university is a business that gets government handouts for its presumed social value. So is the cable company.

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Guns are a durable product easily made in any high school level machine shop.
Give me a fucking break any measurable fraction of handguns are custom-machined.

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The people in the low income/high crime areas of town are the ones that need to be able to purchase and carry firearms the most.
Assuming that high gun ownership rates automatically equal safety. This is flatly untrue; see any bad neighborhood in America.

I'm not sure you can pull the race card, either. If there's so much as a piece of black culture that tells a story of peace and social uplifting through gun ownership, please refer me to it.

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I think anyone who views DUI laws as preventative is a fool, a look at how often people are repeat offenders should tip you off to that. Laws like that are punitive in nature. We get the drunk off the road for a while. You don't chose to not rape women or not drive drunk because it would be against the law, your own morality and sense of responsiblity is the only thing that keeps you from breaking those laws.
You dodged the point. If laws don't do any good, we should get rid of them.

So should we?

I don't think you actually believe that. It's convenient for your argument, though.

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Again I repeat...
What you're asking of me is impossible. Concealed carry permit holders don't hold up banks, and we have no evidence they would do so. So why not force banks to allow CCW?

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This is a topic that always surprises me. There is an absolute mountain of data from states that allow concealed carry, combined totals of decades of data.
I've been through all the data I can find, and has conceded at least once to my feeling every analysis of it is biased and none is worth a fuck.

Concealed campus is demanding something that would be flagrantly unreasonable anywhere else. What it boils down to for me is that maybe I or my colleagues want to pack heat. We generally agree the hotheaded dumbfucks we teach don't need immediate access to a firearm.

A national tragedy that may or may not have been affected by a policy change does NOT give your Nancy Q. Public collectivist selves the right to decide what is a reasonable danger. Ever crushed an emotional child's dreams, or quote-unquote ruined his life? Math profs get to do that ten times a semester.

I don't give a fuck how straight your head was on when you walked in, I don't want a fucking deagle in your backpack when I break the news that you're losing your scholarship / not graduating / not getting your job / not feeding your baby because you never got the hang of Stokes' theorem. Does that help?
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:15 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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students should not be allowed to carry guns on campus because they can use them to kill people
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:17 PM z32tt is offline  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Just curious; are you one of those people who are pro-gun control and anti-border wall?
No, I'm for reasonable gun legislation and much tighter border control. I think the wall is a ridiculous waste of money though, and I find great humor in the fact illegal aliens were hired to build it.

You aren't hearing me. Have your guns, keep your guns. Stop making demands about my place of business because it suits your politics. I will extend you the same courtesy.

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And that top ten ranking doesn't make it a "hotbed of death and assrape?" Christ, top ten of any of those categories would be bad, but for it to place in the top ten in many, I'd say it earns the distinction that you said it didn't.
It's not "top ten" in many. I told you there's no there's no statistical meaning in "top ten" anyway, but you're either ignoring that or don't understand it.

Including all the crime gun ownership is supposed to prevent, IIRC it plummets a few hundred places. The important point is that it's no more a hotbed than anywhere guns are legal as pie. This is strong counterevidence, I think, to the nice idea CCW prevents crime.

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How many have to helplessly die before you allow them the choice to defend themselves?
Hang on, gotta grab my tiny violin. You're arguing so rationally it's beautiful and I'm tearing up.

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Seeing as you'd rather not spend any effort to prevent any more "rampage shootings," do you think that we should stop investigating better ways of aviation safety for the same reason, too? What if the aviation industry played airline crashes like colleges play school shootings? If they did, they would focus their attention on a wicked reaction plan to a crash, which delivers recovery and emergency vehicles to any crash site on Earth within minutes, but make no effort to stop the crash before it happened.
You lost me. I don't think insane serial killers have a simple fix.

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Like Soybomb said, do you mean the "unintended consequences" that you predict would happen with no basis?
I'm not predicting anything. I'm forcing you to defend your argument.

The change you're asking for is significant and it would be foolish to charge in without exploring the possible downside. Like I said a few times, nobody really gains jack shit here, and if you want to convince this industry to roll over on a culture it defines itself by, you're gonna have to do a lot fuckin' more than wave signs on the quad.

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I can see absolutely no "unintended consequence" of allowing CCW holders to carry on campus.
Let me get you started: with CCW, the number of firearms on campus is greater than or equal to it was before.

Go.

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Where are you an employee of that makes your "vote" count more than mine?
Hypothetical U. Fightin' Theoreticals.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:29 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
I've been through all the data I can find, and has conceded at least once to my feeling every analysis of it is biased and none is worth a fuck.

Yes but what you've also conceded is that none of the data even begins to suggest that concealed carry increases the crime rates. You do remember the part about CCW holders overall committing far less crimes than the average citizen, yeah? And you also have to remember that there are schools that allow concealed carry and not a single one has had an incident.
Old 04-25-2008, 08:50 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Forget churches, I don't think that's true.
You're guessing instead of looking for evidence. Why would that be unthinkable? Illinois even goes so far as to target truck stops and rest areas with some drug legislation
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...=072005700K407
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Any person who violates paragraph (2) of this subsection (a) by delivering or possessing with intent to deliver a controlled, counterfeit, or look‑alike substance in or on, or within 1,000 feet of a truck stop or a safety rest area, following a prior conviction or convictions of paragraph (2) of this subsection (a) may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment up to 2 times the maximum term and fined an amount up to 2 times the amount otherwise authorized by Section 401.

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The things you mention are crimes because of specific laws banning them. You're suggesting we can charge people with breaking these laws after we take them off the books. Driving with an open container doesn't suddenly become illegal during a DUI stop.
I don't understand why this seems like such a challenge, the law can be written as the public sees fit. Many states have laws that nullify your carry permit for certain things like intoxication. Make the language of the law be that permits are not valid during the commission of any felonies, sex crimes, or crimes against whatever. They very well might already be like that in most places, I've not had reason to look. It isn't a case of "people with permits are always carrying legally." Laws that implement conditions of validity for the permit (ie: not on school grounds) is the very reason we're having this discussion.

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Of course not -- I suggest we stop trying altogether. Criminals don't obey laws anyway. People are either born good or evil and never base decisions on probable outcomes, so we could save a whole SHITLOAD of money with anarchy.
Why not? Our drug laws have done nothing to make drugs hard to acquire or cause people to stop using them. All they've created is a violent black market that is behind a lot of that big city violence we've been talking about. Lets take the profitability out of the drug trade and save some money on locking up all the drug users. Perhaps we could use it in better ways to keep people from turning to crime. I'm not proposing anarchy at all, just that doing the same thing over and over while it has no effect is the definition of dumb.

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The we've had to go through to board a plane since 9/11 is to reassure us someone can prevent another one.
Feel good measures and actual effectiveness are very different things. People still pay money to have a stranger give them an enema even if it does nothing.

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Personally I don't think any of it is conducive to keeping a jackass with a fork from crashing one into the Pentagon.
But it seems you recognize that.

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If pressed, I believe many of the campus carry folks would admit believing we should allow CCW on airplanes too. While I don't think the federal government necessarily ought to be in the business of passenger safety, the idea that an armed plane is a safer plane is absolutely tit-salad ridiculous.
I require no pressing, I'd support letting people with permits carry on planes. If you can show me some evidence that these people behave irresponsibly with their guns then I'll admit I was tit-salad stupid. Personally if I had the choice between flying an airline that allowed concealed carry permit holders to fly armed and the airline that makes me take off my shoes, get tiny bottles of hair gel, and throw out my water bottle and nail clippers I know which flight I'd be taking every time. If there's trouble anywhere you want a guy with a gun there, police air marshall, whatever. I don't see any reason to believe the person with a carry permit is an unsafe man with a gun. Again, I await evidence to the contrary.

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Wasn't my suggestion, but thanks. It's good enough three months earlier when the same kids are in high school, but now "ridiculous?"
I don't think it does much good at high school either but high school students are on a very different schedule, often not allowed to leave campus, and often don't have a big campus with a ton of different buildings. A high school can function more like the secure area of an airport where people are screen upon entering it and then stay there. A college campus generally works nothing like that.

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C'mon, you just see political leverage with "public property" and you're trying to jam your foot in the door. Go bitch at McDonald's, 7/11, or anywhere else people get shot.
McDonalds and 7/11 don't take my tax dollars, they can demand all customers wear a chicken suit to shop there if they like.

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You misunderstood fire / crowded theater. I'm saying it's an abstract right people demand for the sake of having it.
I see no reason to believe that. People carry everywhere they go in life but don't really want to carry on campus?

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I don't need to demonstrate that it would be more dangerous. You need to demonstrate it would be safer.
I strongly disagree, if you're trying to deprive people of having effective self defense I think you need a very compelling reason for doing so. It seems like being able to defend yourself effectively is a basic right. Again concealed carry isn't about making the general population safer, its about allowing a person to defend themselves. I think it goes without saying that a helpless person is not safer.

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Well if we're talking about college massacres I can shoot that guess down in a heartbeat. My point stands.
Could you refresh my memory on which one you're thinking of where a normal well adjusted guy started shooting? VT is of course the most recent memorable one, and Cho wasn't legally allowed to have a gun. Not surprisingly the guy that killed 30+ people didn't care about breaking that law. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/21guns.html

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Don't take this personally: the elitism is in supposing your tourist / customer ass has any business deciding what is and ain't permitted in my workplace. A public university is a business that gets government handouts for its presumed social value. So is the cable company.
Like it or not the people that pay for the college ultimately get to decide how its run. I suspect they'd not accept a college that didn't respect freedom of speech and there is a chance they won't accept a college not respecting their right to defend themselves while picking up the bill. If you don't like working for the public there are plenty of private employers that will let you work with whatever rules you feel comfortable with.

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Give me a fucking break any measurable fraction of handguns are custom-machine
Of course they aren't, the point is they easily could be if regular guns were cut off at the source. Just look at the UK and their problem with people converting replica guns to be firing weapons. People get what they want, especially if its something as primitive as a combustion chamber and a tube. I think I made a potato gun when I was like 12, I imagine if you could magically cut off the supply of factory made handguns some brilliant person would rediscover how to make them down the block in short order.

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Assuming that high gun ownership rates automatically equal safety. This is flatly untrue; see any bad neighborhood in America.
It requires no such assumption. All it requires is the common sense that in an area filled with violent criminals that have no compunction in harming you, its prudent to have a means to defend yourself if necessary. Again I repeat, its not about guns, its about criminals.

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I'm not sure you can pull the race card, either
You're guessing instead of looking for evidence again. There is a lot out there, I'd probably read the following journal article first Cramer, Clayton (Winter, 1995), "The Racist Roots of Gun Control", Kansas Journal of Law & Public Policy 42 (2)

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You dodged the point. If laws don't do any good, we should get rid of them.
Isn't punishing a drunk by removing his license and putting him a step closer to jail doing some good? It may not prevent his actions but it does provide us with eventual recourse that can.

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So should we?

I don't think you actually believe that. It's convenient for your argument, though.
If there is no net benefit, like locking up people that don't wish to harm others, yes.

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What you're asking of me is impossible. Concealed carry permit holders don't hold up banks, and we have no evidence they would do so. So why not force banks to allow CCW?
Banks are private organizations, they can do whatever they like. I may or may not patronize them but I support their rights to have whatever dumb rules they like on their non-publicly owned property. So if there is no evidence that people with carry permits behave irresponsibly with their guns or commit crimes, just what is it you're worried about.

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I've been through all the data I can find, and has conceded at least once to my feeling every analysis of it is biased and none is worth a fuck.
I'm not looking for any sort of analysis, I'll settle for some simple numbers that aren't subject to bias. Show me conviction rates for permit holders for violent crimes, show me statistically significant numbers of them behaving irresponsibly with their guns and having their permits revoked. These are things that should be simple to show and are the necessary basis for your fears, if they are justified.

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Concealed campus is demanding something that would be flagrantly unreasonable anywhere else.
Thats a very strong statement. Why is it reasonable and safe already on some college campuses? Why is it reasonable and safe everywhere else students might go? Why is asking for the means to defend yourself unreasonable?

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What it boils down to for me is that maybe I or my colleagues want to pack heat.
Cool, meet whatever requirements your state has lined up and go for it. I'm up for anything that means I might not have to read about helpless good people robbed/raped/killed.

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We generally agree the hotheaded dumbfucks we teach don't need immediate access to a firearm.
Sorry, thats not your decision to make. You don't get to decide what protests are allowed on campus, police don't get to decide who needs 4th amendment rights, etc. There are plenty of private colleges you could work for that can make whatever rules they like and the general public has absolutely no say in the administration of.

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A national tragedy that may or may not have been affected by a policy change does NOT give your Nancy Q. Public collectivist selves the right to decide what is a reasonable danger.
It seems like if its their money, it does. You're still neglecting to address other violent crimes that are common on campus already as well. Isn't Nancy being tired of knowing she could protect herself but instead has to hope she is attacked next to a blue phone on the way to her car all the reason she needs to speak up? We're supposed to be smart animals but we've dumbed ourselves down by making ourselves vulnerable to predators.

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Ever crushed an emotional child's dreams, or quote-unquote ruined his life? Math profs get to do that ten times a semester.
And yet there is no blood spilling into the aisles in colleges where those students already are packing. There is no murder when people with concealed carry permits get pulled over and given traffic tickets. There is no murder when people with concealed carry permits find their spouse cheating, get in traffic accidents, get their cars towed or any of the other bad things that happen to people in their day to day lives. You've made an extraordinary claim that these people will pose a danger on campus when they've demonstrated they've safe everywhere else and in some states on campus and not provided anything other than supposition to back up your argument. If your argument was written into a college level paper, I know what grade this teacher would be getting back.

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I don't give a fuck how straight your head was on when you walked in, I don't want a fucking deagle in your backpack when I break the news that you're losing your scholarship / not graduating / not getting your job / not feeding your baby because you never got the hang of Stokes' theorem. Does that help?
I don't care what you want. If I'm paying for the institution I have the right to say that I refuse to be forced to be a helpless victim sitting in class because you have an unsupported feeling about it. My friend who leaves her grad school office late at night and walks through the parking lot doesn't need to be a helpless victim to a rapist because you have an unjustified fear of people with concealed carry permits.

The core issue remains. People are carrying concealed handguns in 48 states, some states have allowed it for years and some states have allowed it for decades. You've presented no evidence that these people are dangerous because of their weapon in their lives outside of school grounds and ignored that students already carry safely on campus in some states already. You fear these students anyway. You disregard this and insist that something is different because they're in geometry class. Your position seems to have no basis outside irrational fear.



I couldn't resist this as an edit:
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Let me get you started: with CCW, the number of firearms on campus is greater than or equal to it was before.
Isn't the first person you call when you're in trouble someone with a gun?
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Last edited by Soybomb; 04-25-2008 at 09:54 PM..
Old 04-25-2008, 09:43 PM Soybomb is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
No, I'm for reasonable gun legislation and much tighter border control. I think the wall is a ridiculous waste of money though, and I find great humor in the fact illegal aliens were hired to build it.

The point I was going to make (and I love to use this on hypocritical liberals) is that they're all for stricter gun control, but they couldn't give two shits about border security, allowing illegal firearms to be smuggled into the country. You foiled me with your "much tighter border control," though, but I don't find the wall a bad idea.

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You aren't hearing me. Have your guns, keep your guns. Stop making demands about my place of business because it suits your politics. I will extend you the same courtesy.
Drop the whole role playing bit, you sound stupid.

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It's not "top ten" in many. I told you there's no there's no statistical meaning in "top ten" anyway, but you're either ignoring that or don't understand it.
So you're telling me that all of the press that DC gets for it being a hotbed of crime is overly exaggerated? Christ.

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Including all the crime gun ownership is supposed to prevent, IIRC it plummets a few hundred places. The important point is that it's no more a hotbed than anywhere guns are legal as pie. This is strong counterevidence, I think, to the nice idea CCW prevents crime.
...you're not talking about DC with that last sentence, I hope.

I'm not trying to claim that CCW prevents crime. I'm saying it offers someone a chance to defend themselves before police arrive. Criminals who are so dedicated to go on a shooting spree may be beyond the point of caring whether they will be shot at or not, which is why crime happens in states with CCW laws in place. Still, you see them choosing to shoot up schools, not gun shows. There's a reason for that.

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Hang on, gotta grab my tiny violin. You're arguing so rationally it's beautiful and I'm tearing up.
I'd love to see people like you hold a meeting with all of the relatives of the victims of VT/NIU and tell them, using charts and graphs, that despite their tragic losses, all of their deaths were too statistically insignificant to make any major changes to protect students on campus. There's a major difference when it comes to making a change in regards to what we're standing for, and safety advances elsewhere, in that ours doesn't cost any money to implement.

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You lost me. I don't think insane serial killers have a simple fix.
I think you just don't like to read points you have a tough time arguing against. You don't feel that college shootings are statistically significant enough to warrant a major change, so why don't we adopt that same philosophy into other things?

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I'm not predicting anything. I'm forcing you to defend your argument.
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any law which makes gun ownership normative does more harm than good
More a claim than a prediction, but a laughable one at that. Don't make me wave the Swiss flag at you.

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The change you're asking for is significant and it would be foolish to charge in without exploring the possible downside. Like I said a few times, nobody really gains jack shit here, and if you want to convince this industry to roll over on a culture it defines itself by, you're gonna have to do a lot fuckin' more than wave signs on the quad.
What, do you think as soon as this week is over the group will go back into their cocoons until the October protest? The Open Holster Protest is a biannual event that generates public interest. You're an idiot if you honestly think that's the only thing the group does.

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Let me get you started: with CCW, the number of firearms on campus is greater than or equal to it was before.

Go.
That's your idea of an "unintended consequence?" Of course the number of firearms will go up on campus if CCW is allowed. You cannot prove that the overall firearms will go up in the region surrounding the college, though, as the people who will use their new ability to carry on campus will be the ones who have CCW permits already. Are you trying to say that allowing CCW on campus will suddenly flood the number of licensed CCW holders, and create exponentially more individually owned firearms than were there before? Why would someone who is for CCW, but doesn't have the ability to carry on campus, not get a CCW license, and a carry weapon, for use elsewhere in the city until CCW would be allowed on campus?

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Hypothetical U. Fightin' Theoreticals.
Ah. You're being a role-playing, holier than thou elitist. Gotcha.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:08 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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mofugger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red|dragon View Post
I just don't feel comfortable with all these students walking around with guns. It's like a doctor performing brain surgery. There are doctors that got A's on their tests and there are doctors who might have cheated and doctors who may have been C students. You'd want the smartest doctor, the one who got A's, to be performing brain surgery on you. However, since it would be hard to obtain that information, we have to rely on reputation and word of mouth from others and past experiences. There is always a rotten egg. What if I get stuck with some CCW student who doesn't know what the hell he is doing? Do CCW people have to go back for training regularly? Or can they take the test once and be good for life?

...just asking questions and trying to learn, not bitching or moaning

Well then you probably shouldn't go to college because the person sitting behind you in class might be illegally carrying a firearm and shoot you in the back of the head.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:25 PM mofugger is offline  
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#209  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchy10 View Post
Wow, way to assume that only white people are the only ones wearing empty holsters.
Let's be more racist

Typical ... playing the race card
Old 04-26-2008, 03:10 AM bingstudent is offline  
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