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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
It would really only affect upper year students and classrooms since if I'm not mistaken you have to be at least 21 to qualify for a CCW permit in the first place, and most students are entering college/university by 17 or 18 years of age. They'll be in fourth year at the earliest when they're able to "defend themselves" or their classmates from a potential threat, meaning anyone in a third year class and below is essentially screwed.

There are 6 states which allow you to get one at 18. Nevertheless, by saying no to everyone, you're saying no to those 21+ college students too. Plus, there's always chances there are 21+ students in classes with 18ish year old students. That's the big flaw in the whole thing, honestly, but if we got teachers to carry...

Quote:
Even so, I don't like the potential consequences of flooding a university campus with guns. There was a recent case in Toronto of three army reservists, people who go through military background checks to ensure they have clean records, beating a homeless man to death while drunk. I know you mentioned this earlier, , however people do stupid things when they're drunk. I see fights all the time happening at our campus club on Thursday nights. I'm thinking we're better off in the long run with less lethal weapons on campus.
Were those involved in the fights CCW holders?

Quote:
Also, background checks for this kind of idea would have to be incredibly extensive. You're right, you can't just do some psychological investigation and even if you could, good criminals can fake it. However, Kimveer Gill and Cho both obtained their weapons legally. That's something that just shouldn't happen. What guarantees do you have for me that a CCW permit applicant doesn't have this potential? Bear in mind, I'm saying this as someone who supports gun ownership and prefers limited gun control, but there is a logical limit for this kind of thing and a point where a line has to be drawn.
I think the current system is adequate, save for a bit more tightening of the gears so accidents like Cho don't happen.


This is an AWESOME FAQ that deals with a lot of questions about SCCC; I'm handing it out when people ask about the holster: http://www.concealedcampus.org/answers.pdf
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:36 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
As opposed to any other place? Campuses would not be "flooded" with guns.

It wont necessarily be "flooded", but it would lead to a lot of firearms on campus for really no good reason.

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
And you're assuming that these same kids who carry would also be getting drunk while carrying. That's a mighty strange assumption considering we don't ever hear about this kind of stuff happening in states where concealed carry is the norm. How many times do you hear about shootouts from lawful, CCW-carrying people just because they got drunk at a bar?

Oh so CCW permit holders don't drink? They're never violent? There is no potential whatsoever for violence or misuse of their firearms while on campus, in spite of the number of physical altercations that occur on university campuses? I find that hard to believe. Yes, you're right in saying that typically CCW permit holders are not a problem, however you're neglecting the fact that a lot of univeristy aged individuals are not responsible, may have violent tendencies, are often in situations where they may become intoxicated and may in turn become more violent, and somehow this is supposed to make me feel safer?

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
What part of this aren't people getting? The laws against guns on campus is not stopping a single, solitary person from bringing a gun on campus.

What do you tell the person who doesn't feel safe without their carbine? Should we allow carbines on campus? I mean if it's legal to own a rifle, should you also be allowed to walk around with it on campus?

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It's something that shouldn't happen but if they hadn't been able to get their weapons legally do you honestly think it would have prevented anything? That they would have just shrugged their shoulders and gone on with their happy little lives?

Neither Gil nor Cho had permits to carry concealed weapons. What they did was already illegal and not one law stopped them.

I question whether or not someone like Cho would have been able to find a smuggler to "score him some heat", but you're sidestepping the point. Someone like Cho could easily pass a criminal background check and get a CCW permit.

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
There is no logic to banning guns on campus any more than banning them in grocery stores or public parks. Just because someone is in college does not mean that responsibility goes flying out the window. If most people who carried weren't responsible about it in the first place we would already see a rash of gun violence committed by CCW holders. But we don't. Those with permits to carry concealed weapons are less likely to commit any crime, let alone shooting people for looking at them the wrong way.

There's no reason for permitting guns on campus, either. The "protect yourself and others from a school shooting" argument is absolute bullocks unless you lower the minimum age for a permit to 17 (actually you'd really need to lower it to highschool ages to defend against another massacre there). I get around just fine without needing a gun to "defend" myself. How paranoid are Americans that this is a legitimate concern amongst you folks? Are you constantly under fire at school where having a gun is an absolute necessity? I'll guarantee you if you added up the number of school shootings that have occured in the past 100 years and compare it to the number of crimes committed by CCW holders, you'd have a higher number on the latter.

I don't feel safe unless I have a C7A2 with an M203 locked and loaded and a bayonet mount in case I have to fight in close. Should I be stripped of my rights simply because you don't think I should be allowed to carry a loaded assault rifle and grenade launcher with me to school? Do you see how silly this can get?
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:52 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
There are 6 states which allow you to get one at 18. Nevertheless, by saying no to everyone, you're saying no to those 21+ college students too. Plus, there's always chances there are 21+ students in classes with 18ish year old students. That's the big flaw in the whole thing, honestly, but if we got teachers to carry...
[/url]

Why don't we just install machine gun nests in every classroom? I'll feel much safer then!

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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Were those involved in the fights CCW holders?
[/url]

Oh sorry, let me track them down and find out. I'll get back to you on this!

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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
I think the current system is adequate, save for a bit more tightening of the gears so accidents like Cho don't happen.


This is an AWESOME FAQ that deals with a lot of questions about SCCC; I'm handing it out when people ask about the holster: http://www.concealedcampus.org/answers.pdf

What, in your opinion, is the upper limit to permission of weapons for arming students and why? I mean, what class of weapons, calibre, etc.
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:55 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
arming students

You say this like there is going to be a campus raffle.

Yes, the increased awareness caused current debate might have an innitial effect of a small % more people going through the steps to get a CC permit. That would be their right, should they choose to exercise it. However, should CC on campus be legalized, I would be willing to wager there would not be much difference in the number of CC permit holders on campus than there currently is. The only difference will be that people who are legally allowed to carry concealed weapons nearly everywhere else would be allowed to carry them on campus as well.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:05 PM Renork is offline  
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Also,

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol....o-Carry%20Laws
Quote:
* Right-to-carry laws require law enforcement agencies to issue handgun permits to all qualified applicants. Qualifications include criteria such as age, a clean criminal record, and completing a firearm safety course. (13)

* In 1986, nine states had right-to-carry laws. (14)

* As of 1998, 31 states have right-to-carry laws, and about half the U.S. population lives in these states. (3)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:




* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)


And

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis.../convrates.htm
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:15 PM Renork is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
It wont necessarily be "flooded", but it would lead to a lot of firearms on campus for really no good reason.
Self defense isn't a good reason?
Quote:

Oh so CCW permit holders don't drink? They're never violent? There is no potential whatsoever for violence or misuse of their firearms while on campus, in spite of the number of physical altercations that occur on university campuses? I find that hard to believe. Yes, you're right in saying that typically CCW permit holders are not a problem, however you're neglecting the fact that a lot of univeristy aged individuals are not responsible, may have violent tendencies, are often in situations where they may become intoxicated and may in turn become more violent, and somehow this is supposed to make me feel safer?
CCW permit holders do drink and can be violent but they sure seem to commit fewer crimes than the average citizen. They don't go on shooting rampages because they're drunk, bar fights don't devolve into shooting matches. This has been shown time and time and time again in every state that allows for concealed carry.

Of course there's potential but the risk of that is less than the risk of having another Cho bring his weapon on campus illegally and start executing people.

A lot of university-aged people are not responsible? Tell that to the 21 year old CCW holders all across the country that have never opened fire on someone without provocation. Just because one is on a college campus does not reduce their sense of responsibility. Just because they're in the presence of alcohol does not mean they're not smart enough to leave the gun locked in a safe when they go out to the bar.

You're making an assumption about these potential carriers that simply doesn't follow logic. There is nothing to show that concealed carry holders are violent and unstable off campus and thus none to show that they'd be violent and unstable on campus. If your idea was valid then we would see 21/22 year old non-college students across the country getting drunk at bars and shooting each other.

We don't. Being on campus does not change a thing.
Quote:
What do you tell the person who doesn't feel safe without their carbine? Should we allow carbines on campus? I mean if it's legal to own a rifle, should you also be allowed to walk around with it on campus?
Now you're being ridiculous. This is about concealed carry of a handgun, not open carry of a rifle.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that laws against guns on campus don't stop a single Cho or Gil. You could have a thousand laws against it and it still wouldn't stop them.
Quote:
I question whether or not someone like Cho would have been able to find a smuggler to "score him some heat", but you're sidestepping the point. Someone like Cho could easily pass a criminal background check and get a CCW permit.
Just because you question it doesn't negate the fact that it's certainly possible. If Cho could have easily gotten a CCW permit then don't you think he would have? If he had tried then his Virginia medical record would have come into a play a lot more strongly than it did when he purchased the guns. It would have been a red flag and most states are far more strict about CCW policies than NICS background checks.

And it still doesn't change the fact that incidents like Cho where someone commits murder with a legally purchased and owned firearm are extremely rare and it's far more likely that a student with a gun will save a life than take one.
Quote:
There's no reason for permitting guns on campus, either. The "protect yourself and others from a school shooting" argument is absolute bullocks unless you lower the minimum age for a permit to 17 (actually you'd really need to lower it to highschool ages to defend against another massacre there). I get around just fine without needing a gun to "defend" myself. How paranoid are Americans that this is a legitimate concern amongst you folks? Are you constantly under fire at school where having a gun is an absolute necessity?
How the hell is it bullocks? Concealed carry is already used for that very purpose in the majority of the country and in nearly a dozen colleges. You wouldn't need to lower the permit age. It'd be nice but it's certainly not necessary. Most of Cho's victims were of age to carry.

Just because you get around just fine does not give you the right to prevent someone else from defending themselves. How paranoid are you that you put a seat belt on every time you get in the car? How paranoid are you that you lock your doors at night? How paranoid are you that you read warning labels on medication? Taking safety precautions is not being paranoid and you have no authority to judge someone else's idea of safety when it has absolutely zero impact on your own.

Quote:
I'll guarantee you if you added up the number of school shootings that have occured in the past 100 years and compare it to the number of crimes committed by CCW holders, you'd have a higher number on the latter.
No, if you're going to be fair about it then add up the number of school shootings versus the number of unjustified homicides committed by CCW holders.

If you're going to be fair than compare the number of crimes committed by the average non-CCW holder versus the average CCW holder.

If you're going to be fair than compare the number of school shootings at schools that don't allow concealed carry versus the ones that do. How many of those latter schools have had a shooting rampage? How many have had a shooting by a CCW holder?
Quote:
I don't feel safe unless I have a C7A2 with an M203 locked and loaded and a bayonet mount in case I have to fight in close. Should I be stripped of my rights simply because you don't think I should be allowed to carry a loaded assault rifle and grenade launcher with me to school? Do you see how silly this can get?
You're being unreasonable and resorting to arguing absurdities. You cannot safely and reliably carry and conceal a rifle with a bayonet and grenade launcher. If you're going to argue this issue then argue the fucking merits, don't come up with arguments that don't add a damn thing to the issue.
Old 04-21-2008, 05:25 PM SemperFly is offline  
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I want to see you have that on a pin on your shirt, then walk through some urban downtown areas at night.

I got interviewed by the campus and local newspaper today.

Awesome, give em hell.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:41 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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doesn't change the fact that you misread my damn post. I was referring to people not being tested for safety training, I was specifically referring to his assertion that people should have to have a psych consult before carrying a firearm

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Old 04-21-2008, 05:49 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Why don't we just install machine gun nests in every classroom? I'll feel much safer then!

Because they're not "concealed weapons." We're talking about Concealed Carry here, not anything else.


Quote:
Oh sorry, let me track them down and find out. I'll get back to you on this!
Until you do, it's unfair to stereotype those who will carry as those who will get drunk.


Quote:
What, in your opinion, is the upper limit to permission of weapons for arming students and why? I mean, what class of weapons, calibre, etc.
Handguns of any caliber that can be concealed. The point of Concealed Carry is to have a weapon as deterrence (or self-defense, as a last resort) concealed, so the fear of reprisal is there. Lugging an AR-15 or a Belt-Fed machine gun around doesn't exactly fit the bill.
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Old 04-21-2008, 05:54 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renork View Post
You say this like there is going to be a campus raffle.

Yes, the increased awareness caused current debate might have an innitial effect of a small % more people going through the steps to get a CC permit. That would be their right, should they choose to exercise it. However, should CC on campus be legalized, I would be willing to wager there would not be much difference in the number of CC permit holders on campus than there currently is. The only difference will be that people who are legally allowed to carry concealed weapons nearly everywhere else would be allowed to carry them on campus as well.

For what reason?
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:24 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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What if it's a ...


...


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Old 04-21-2008, 06:40 PM Straw Man is offline  
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This thread is relevent to my interests, as I hope to get a CCW + handgun sometime this summer.
Old 04-21-2008, 06:44 PM sir tex is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
Self defense isn't a good reason?

You don't need a gun to defend yourself in math class. Millions upon millions of people have successfully completed university without requiring a firearm on their person at all times for "self-defense".

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
CCW permit holders do drink and can be violent but they sure seem to commit fewer crimes than the average citizen. They don't go on shooting rampages because they're drunk, bar fights don't devolve into shooting matches. This has been shown time and time and time again in every state that allows for concealed carry.

I think we can also agree there's probably more cases of execessive drinking and questionable behaviour on a university campus than otherwise.

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Of course there's potential but the risk of that is less than the risk of having another Cho bring his weapon on campus illegally and start executing people.

You can't prove that, especially because Cho bought his weapons legally. You're also not addressing freshmen and sophomore classes where no one will be old enough to be armed. Should they be paranoid about their safety now because no one has a gun?

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
A lot of university-aged people are not responsible? Tell that to the 21 year old CCW holders all across the country that have never opened fire on someone without provocation. Just because one is on a college campus does not reduce their sense of responsibility. Just because they're in the presence of alcohol does not mean they're not smart enough to leave the gun locked in a safe when they go out to the bar.

Doesn't mean they are either. And there you go with that 21 age limit again. How does this help the 17 year old freshman defend himself?

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
You're making an assumption about these potential carriers that simply doesn't follow logic. There is nothing to show that concealed carry holders are violent and unstable off campus and thus none to show that they'd be violent and unstable on campus. If your idea was valid then we would see 21/22 year old non-college students across the country getting drunk at bars and shooting each other.

You're also making the assumption that allowing people to carry guns on campus is somehow making everyone safer, in spite of the fact that it wont affect the vast majority of students on campus anyways, and is therefore ineffective at it's alleged objective.

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We don't. Being on campus does not change a thing. Now you're being ridiculous. This is about concealed carry of a handgun, not open carry of a rifle.

Why do you want to limit my rights? I'm a law abiding citizen. If I desire a rifle and have a permit to own one I should be allowed to carry it. Otherwise, my rights are being violated, I'm being oppressed, and I'm not safe because I don't have lethal force within arm's reach of all times.

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
Yet it doesn't change the fact that laws against guns on campus don't stop a single Cho or Gil. You could have a thousand laws against it and it still wouldn't stop them. Just because you question it doesn't negate the fact that it's certainly possible. If Cho could have easily gotten a CCW permit then don't you think he would have? If he had tried then his Virginia medical record would have come into a play a lot more strongly than it did when he purchased the guns. It would have been a red flag and most states are far more strict about CCW policies than NICS background checks.

Doubtful. Cho really didn't need to apply for a CCW permit anyways to commit his act anyways, which is a major problem as it is, but that's beside the point. Second of all, the government isn't perfect with their background checks. Here's an example:

http://firearmcrime.blogspot.com/200...-employee.html

So you can't guarantee that anyways.

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
And it still doesn't change the fact that incidents like Cho where someone commits murder with a legally purchased and owned firearm are extremely rare and it's far more likely that a student with a gun will save a life than take one. How the hell is it bullocks? Concealed carry is already used for that very purpose in the majority of the country and in nearly a dozen colleges. You wouldn't need to lower the permit age. It'd be nice but it's certainly not necessary. Most of Cho's victims were of age to carry.

Wonderful. So you've managed to stop Cho. What do you do in freshman classes where people aren't of the age to carry? Also, being of the age to carry doesn't mean you're carrying anything beyond your pen and a clipboard for note taking. Now you're assuming there will be enough people getting permits to make this policy effective.

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Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
Just because you get around just fine does not give you the right to prevent someone else from defending themselves. How paranoid are you that you put a seat belt on every time you get in the car? How paranoid are you that you lock your doors at night? How paranoid are you that you read warning labels on medication? Taking safety precautions is not being paranoid and you have no authority to judge someone else's idea of safety when it has absolutely zero impact on your own.

Oh come on man, there's a big difference between feeling like you have to carry a pistol around when you go to class and putting on your seatbelt when you enter your car. That's not even a valid comparison!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post

You're being unreasonable and resorting to arguing absurdities. You cannot safely and reliably carry and conceal a rifle with a bayonet and grenade launcher. If you're going to argue this issue then argue the fucking merits, don't come up with arguments that don't add a damn thing to the issue.

Sure you can! Besides, I need it to defend myself. I don't like having my rights trampled.

I know it sounds unreasonable. That's the point. It's about as unreasonable in my eyes that you desperately need a gun for day-to-day protection at school.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:44 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Because they're not "concealed weapons." We're talking about Concealed Carry here, not anything else.

Right-limiter!

Gosh we need Ron Paul now more then ever!

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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Until you do, it's unfair to stereotype those who will carry as those who will get drunk.

I wasn't aware not getting smashed was a prerequisite for a CCW permit, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Handguns of any caliber that can be concealed. The point of Concealed Carry is to have a weapon as deterrence (or self-defense, as a last resort) concealed, so the fear of reprisal is there. Lugging an AR-15 or a Belt-Fed machine gun around doesn't exactly fit the bill.

Look man, I don't feel safe without at least a C7A2 and a few fragmentation grenades, ok. Why do you want to limit my right to effectively defend myself? Pistols only have an effective range of about 19 metres. What do I do if I'm engaged by multiple opponents who are wielding AR-15s from 50 metres away? I'd be screwed! Don't you see how important it is I have this?
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What if it's a ...


...


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Hey, it's concealed!
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