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Mr. Greg
I'm obsessed with DHermit
 
My interview got published today:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/arti...x.cfm?id=74261

Quote:
A handful of students at UND and the University of Minnesota-Crookston are making no effort to conceal their opinions this week.

The students are wearing empty holsters to classes to protest state and school policies banning concealed weapons and are handing out pamphlets to students who ask about the unusual accessories.

The holster-wearing students are connected with the national group Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, which organized a similar protest in October. Greg Plautz, the leader of the UND faction, said his group is just getting organized but estimated about a dozen students were wearing holsters Monday.

“Right now, it’s an awareness thing,” Plautz said. “We have pamphlets to hand out if people ask us about it. We plan to be more involved beginning in fall.”

Plautz recently transferred to UND from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee to study air traffic control. Concealed weapons are prohibited in Wisconsin, he said, and he’d hoped to get a concealed weapon license upon moving to North Dakota. But when he arrived in town, he said, he learned that UND, where he spends most of his time, prohibits concealed weapons on campus.

“The holster is (significant) because it’s empty, and it’s out in the open,” he said. “Even though we have the right to have firearms, we don’t have the right to carry those firearms on campus. So, we’re defenseless.”

Campus shooting sprees

Plautz and his counterpart at UMC cited the campus shooting sprees at Virginia Tech last year and at Northern Illinois University in February that left almost 40 students dead, saying that an armed student body could have prevented much of the bloodshed.

“(Those) students could have had the opportunity to defend themselves when the attackers first came,” Plautz said.

UND vice president Bob Boyd also cited those campus shootings Monday, saying he’d been concerned that the sight of holsters on campus — even empty ones — could cause some students and professors to panic.

After UND’s legal counsel told him the empty holsters were a legal and legitimate form of protest, Boyd said, he sent an e-mail to his entire staff warning them of the protest, and a similar e-mail was sent to faculty members.

“There was certainly no ill intent on the part of those doing the protesting,” Boyd said. “But for those who aren’t in the know, it could cause some anxious moments. Knowing that this is a legitimate form of protest, I think, lowers that anxiety.”

Jared Hendricks, a junior business major who led the UMC protesters, said students tend to be “easy targets” because campuses are seemingly more prone than other places to random acts of violence, and yet they are more likely to have concealed weapons restrictions. Students with licensed concealed weapons also could help prevent other campus crime, he said.

“People with concealed carry permits feel that police aren’t able to defend every single person,” Hendricks said. “Concealed weapons allow the tables to be a little more even, so we don’t have armed criminals and disarmed citizens everywhere.” Though campus shootings have made big news in the past year, they’re relatively rare, Hendricks acknowledged. But he said it’s still important for students to have the option to carry a weapon.

“You don’t feel in danger of getting into a car accident every day,” he said, “but there’s that 0.5 percent chance of an accident, so you wear a seatbelt.”
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:16 AM Mr. Greg is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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I still haven't gotten a reply from SCCC on being my campus rep but then again I won't be around much longer so I guess it doesn't matter. :|
Old 04-22-2008, 11:30 AM SemperFly is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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They still haven't changed me to the campus rep for UND on their website, and it's been around 4 months now...
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:45 AM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Markus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lopoetve View Post
self defense, you stupid shit. the basic human right that you try to steal.
Is it impossible to defend yourself without firearms in America?
Old 04-22-2008, 12:21 PM Markus is offline  
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Zangmonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus View Post
Is it impossible to defend yourself without firearms in America?


In any country, if your assailant has a firearm... it is impossible to defend yourself without a firearm.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:26 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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PopeKevinI
 
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In any country, if your assailant has a firearm... it is impossible to defend yourself without a firearm.

Not true. I find that fleeing is an effective defense. Now if you are to change that to "defend your home" then you have a case. One cannot run away from the gun without abandoning the home.

Of course, it's also possible to defend oneself from an armed assailant without equal weaponry, given the proper situation.
Old 04-22-2008, 12:54 PM PopeKevinI is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Not true. I find that fleeing is an effective defense.

...So fleeing worked for all of those who died at NIU and VT? Or are you trying to say they didn't flee, which is why they died?

Fleeing is only effective given the chance that there's another target for the assailant to shoot at. I'd rather not give them a open target and defend myself istead.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:58 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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PopeKevinI
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
...So fleeing worked for all of those who died at NIU and VT? Or are you trying to say they didn't flee, which is why they died?

Fleeing is only effective given the chance that there's another target for the assailant to shoot at. I'd rather not give them a open target and defend myself istead.

You're talking about one exceptional case. The vast majority of confrontations that involve firearms can be resolved by removing yourself from the scene.

I'm certainly not arguing against carrying concealed, I'm just saying there are more options *in most cases* than "shoot or be shot".
Old 04-22-2008, 01:15 PM PopeKevinI is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post
Not true. I find that fleeing is an effective defense. Now if you are to change that to "defend your home" then you have a case. One cannot run away from the gun without abandoning the home.

Of course, it's also possible to defend oneself from an armed assailant without equal weaponry, given the proper situation.

fleeing isn't a form of self defense and it's not necessarily an option for the elderly or disabled

the "proper situation" in which one can defend oneself from an armed assailant without equal weaponry is incredibly rare outside of the movies
Old 04-22-2008, 01:16 PM SemperFly is offline  
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PopeKevinI
 
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fleeing isn't a form of self defense and it's not necessarily an option for the elderly or disabled

Defense:

1. The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury.
2. A means or method of defending or protecting.

Defend:

To make or keep safe from danger, attack, or harm.

I'd have to say that getting out of danger qualifies as defending against it. You don't like that idea because running away doesn't appeal to you, but in many situations it's the absolute best way to avoid being hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
the "proper situation" in which one can defend oneself from an armed assailant without equal weaponry is incredibly rare outside of the movies

Not as rare as you might think. Obviously you don't get the chance if there's much distance or if the gun is already drawn and trained on you. But I can think of a few scenarios where it's quite possible to surprise and disarm someone.

In all reality, there aren't a lot of situations where you can defend yourself with a gun that you can't defend yourself without one--barring a physical limitation that is. Sure you can shoot a guy with a knife, but as prolific as guns are around here, how often do people use knives to commit violent crimes? Gun or no gun, you're going to be faced with the same situation: if they have already drawn their weapon and have it trained on you, you've already lost your chance at defending yourself.
Old 04-22-2008, 01:25 PM PopeKevinI is offline  
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MrMaN383
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Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post
I find that fleeing is an effective defense.

by all means, lets test it. i can hit a 3" clay target at 45 yards moving upwards of 60mph using a 12 gauge and modified choke. how confident are you that you can run from me?
Old 04-22-2008, 01:44 PM MrMaN383 is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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yay, semantics! some people can't run away. sometimes the potential attacker can run faster. sometimes you're with kids. there are a myriad of reasons why running away isn't necessarily the best choice but even when it is having a firearm and the skill to use it is still better than not having one at all

And sorry but it is rare. People disarming thugs with guns happens in movies. You're not going to pull it off without getting shot. Yes, I'm sure someone's tried to mug a ninja or a Navy SEAL at some point and learned their lesson but the idea that it's even remotely advisable for anyone without many years of training for that very purpose is a bit silly.
Old 04-22-2008, 01:58 PM SemperFly is offline  
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MrMaN383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
yay, semantics! some people can't run away. sometimes the potential attacker can run faster. sometimes you're with kids. there are a myriad of reasons why running away isn't necessarily the best choice but even when it is having a firearm and the skill to use it is still better than not having one at all

And sorry but it is rare. People disarming thugs with guns happens in movies. You're not going to pull it off without getting shot. Yes, I'm sure someone's tried to mug a ninja or a Navy SEAL at some point and learned their lesson but the idea that it's even remotely advisable for anyone without many years of training for that very purpose is a bit silly.

the entire argument is silly. no one is suggesting you must carry a firearm or must use it when faced with a threat or dangerous situation. you can flee just as well while packing as unarmed. you can use alternative means just as well while packing as unarmed. you can be just as completely shit out of luck while packing as unarmed. all carrying a weapon does is add another tool for self defense, a highly effective one at that.
Old 04-22-2008, 02:07 PM MrMaN383 is offline  
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PopeKevinI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMaN383 View Post
by all means, lets test it. i can hit a 3" clay target at 45 yards moving upwards of 60mph using a 12 gauge and modified choke. how confident are you that you can run from me?

And I'm sure most criminals who point guns at people are of similar skill.

Let's try a similar test: I, lacking similar skill, point a gun at you. Now you try to draw a holstered weapon before I shoot you.

This is why I don't bother with owning a gun. I've had a number of scrapes with them in the past, and never once would having my own have made a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
yay, semantics! some people can't run away. sometimes the potential attacker can run faster. sometimes you're with kids. there are a myriad of reasons why running away isn't necessarily the best choice but even when it is having a firearm and the skill to use it is still better than not having one at all

The thing is, every defense has to be situational. If someone has a gun at your temple, you don't do anything, no matter how well-armed you are. In fact, outside of a maniac shooting up a public place (very unlikely that it will even happen within ten miles of you, much less where you are), I'd like you to give me a realistic scenario where you'd have the opportunity to draw a holstered firearm against an armed man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyNavy View Post
And sorry but it is rare. People disarming thugs with guns happens in movies. You're not going to pull it off without getting shot. Yes, I'm sure someone's tried to mug a ninja or a Navy SEAL at some point and learned their lesson but the idea that it's even remotely advisable for anyone without many years of training for that very purpose is a bit silly.

It's rare...yet...I've done it. I was avoiding bringing it up because one anecdote has little value in a debate such as this, but if you're going to keep implying that one must be a trained warrior to disarm a man with a gun, I've got to call you on it.

The situation was this: the punk in question decided to draw a gun in the middle of a rather stupid street fight that I'd found myself involved in (I make no secret of my foolish youth, I was involved with--but not a member of--a street gang). There were three of us and four of them, so he had multiple targets. I just waited until he was moving his sights from one person to another and stepped in to take the gun from him, stopping it in its arc where no one was in immediate danger. I forced the gun down, put my finger over his, and fired two shots into the ground. He was so surprised by this that he turned lose of the gun. If he hadn't, I'd have emptied the whole magazine into the dirt.

Risky? Certainly. Better than waiting to see if he got twitchy and shot someone? Probably. Would I have been better off drawing my own gun? Absolutely NOT.

The best use for a concealed weapon is against someone who doesn't have a gun of their own. It completely shuts down the rare criminal who prefers a knife or blunt instrument. Just don't misrepresent CCW as a way to counter the gun-toting criminals.
Old 04-23-2008, 04:41 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post

The thing is, every defense has to be situational. If someone has a gun at your temple, you don't do anything, no matter how well-armed you are. In fact, outside of a maniac shooting up a public place (very unlikely that it will even happen within ten miles of you, much less where you are), I'd like you to give me a realistic scenario where you'd have the opportunity to draw a holstered firearm against an armed man.
Yes, of course it's situational but you want me to just dream up a scenario? Wouldn't it be better to consider the hundreds of thousands of times that guns are used in self-defense every year as appropriate scenarios? Why do I need to conjure up an encounter when there's evidence of it happening every single day?
Quote:
It's rare...yet...I've done it. I was avoiding bringing it up because one anecdote has little value in a debate such as this, but if you're going to keep implying that one must be a trained warrior to disarm a man with a gun, I've got to call you on it.

The situation was this: the punk in question decided to draw a gun in the middle of a rather stupid street fight that I'd found myself involved in (I make no secret of my foolish youth, I was involved with--but not a member of--a street gang). There were three of us and four of them, so he had multiple targets. I just waited until he was moving his sights from one person to another and stepped in to take the gun from him, stopping it in its arc where no one was in immediate danger. I forced the gun down, put my finger over his, and fired two shots into the ground. He was so surprised by this that he turned lose of the gun. If he hadn't, I'd have emptied the whole magazine into the dirt.

Risky? Certainly. Better than waiting to see if he got twitchy and shot someone? Probably. Would I have been better off drawing my own gun? Absolutely NOT.

The best use for a concealed weapon is against someone who doesn't have a gun of their own. It completely shuts down the rare criminal who prefers a knife or blunt instrument. Just don't misrepresent CCW as a way to counter the gun-toting criminals.
You've done it, yet it's still rare. And still inadvisable for the vast majority of the population, especially those who are not young and in shape.

You might have been better off drawing your own gun. In fact, it would have been safer because you would have been able to draw yours and fire in less time than it took you to grab the other guy's gun and you would have avoided having to pull his trigger which could have presented a risk to those around you. Besides, if you had been the only target and he hadn't given you the opportunity by aiming away from you do you still think it would have worked?

There are examples of people drawing on and shooting armed criminals. It happens a hell of a lot more often than what happened to you. CCW is certainly a way to counter the gun toting criminals. Just as your actions were a way to counter it and just as running away is a counter. But carrying is the most effective and reliable against all brands of criminals for the entire population, not just the ones without physical limitations preventing them from hauling ass or attacking an armed criminal.
Old 04-23-2008, 07:57 AM SemperFly is offline  
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