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2slow
Whatsisname
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reread my edit. They knew it was to be a bomb, they just didn't know if it would be used, or where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Wrong, fuckface. As I have been trying to get through to you - THEY DIDN'T. After the two bombs were dropped on Japan, the bomb has been exclusively used for deterrance, which is what those scientists wanted.
Just because they built it does not give them any right to choose what it's for.
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No, my argument is being ignored. Try actually reading what I am posting.
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:35 AM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
reread my edit. They knew it was to be a bomb, they just didn't know if it would be used, or where.

They were not informed though. When the Manhattan project began, the US had a good record of avoiding warfare and the killing of civilians. They had no reason to believe that years down the line, your government would order the slaying of thousands.

Quote:
Just because they built it does not give them any right to choose what it's for.
Know what a patent is? These people surrendered their IP rights to the bomb under false pretenses, and that doesn't really matter as the US government would almost certainly have simply used the bomb regardless of the law.
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:39 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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2slow
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So what

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
They were not informed though. When the Manhattan project began, the US had a good record of avoiding warfare and the killing of civilians. They had no reason to believe that years down the line, your government would order the slaying of thousands.
That might be a valid claim if they tried to get or had a patent on the bomb's mechanisms. However, like i mentioned earlier, they did not foot the bill and take the risk building the thing, the US government did, so guess where the patent would go to: the US government. Patents never go to employees. But I though all we cared about was money
Quote:
Know what a patent is? These people surrendered their IP rights to the bomb under false pretenses, and that doesn't really matter as the US government would almost certainly have simply used the bomb regardless of the law.
You ran out of arguments a few days back and now you are taking another stab at somehow trying to invalidate the decision the US government made. Eventually you'll stop, then in a few days return, with some new , and so thats what I'm going to let you do, becuase this is a pointless argument which has no basis in reality, just in your head full of hate for the United States and it's accomplishments.
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:45 AM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
So what


That might be a valid claim if they tried to get or had a patent on the bomb's mechanisms. However, like i mentioned earlier, they did not foot the bill and take the risk building the thing, the US government did, so guess where the patent would go to: the US government. Patents never go to employees. But I though all we cared about was money

Wrong again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%F3_Szil%E1rd
Quote:
He first attempted to create a chain reaction using Beryllium and Indium, but neither yielded the reaction he deliberated. In 1936, he assigned the chain-reaction patent to the British Admiralty to ensure secrecy of the patent ( UK Patent 630726 (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...X=GB630726&F=0)).
Then the Patent would've been transfer to the US along with all our other nuclear research materials (it was felt at the time that the bomb shouldn't be developed in the UK because of the risk that it would fall into the hands of the Nazis should we be invaded).

Besides, as I said, what the US did might have been legal but that doesn't make it right.

Quote:
You ran out of arguments a few days back and now you are taking another stab at somehow trying to invalidate the decision the US government made. Eventually you'll stop, then in a few days return, with some new , and so thats what I'm going to let you do, becuase this is a pointless argument which has no basis in reality, just in your head full of hate for the United States and it's accomplishments.
Just a few posts back I admitted it was far better that the US got the bomb first, but you choose to only read what confirms your opinion of me.

The reason I left this argument was because I'd said what I wanted to say and there was nothing more to do but participate in the flame war. I came back, because I had thought of another way to look at the debate. Hopefully some people who are more willing to actually listen to my arguments will arrive soon.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:01 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
For the record, I too am glad that Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany or the USSR didn't get there first (especially Nazi Germany, as my grandparents lived in a major industrial centre and I wouldn't exist if they had).

However, the US could've demonstrated the atomic bomb without killing thousands of civilians. It could've been used tactically against the Japanese Navy maybe, or detonated in an uninhabited part of Japanese territory, so they could see the effect first hand.

At the very least, they could've let people know about the Trinity test. If the intent was to make Japan back down peacefully they would not have kept that a secret until after Hiroshima.
Japan was asked to surrender yet again after the first bomb was dropped....what makes you think a demonstration on a uninhabited island or on the (already decimated) Japanese navy would have been more effective?
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:21 AM joemama is online now  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck

However, the US could've demonstrated the atomic bomb without killing thousands of civilians. It could've been used tactically against the Japanese Navy maybe, or detonated in an uninhabited part of Japanese territory, so they could see the effect first hand.

At the very least, they could've let people know about the Trinity test. If the intent was to make Japan back down peacefully they would not have kept that a secret until after Hiroshima.

This is when actually reading a history book would help you understand what was happening at the time, as well as save you from looking like a fool when you post.

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a question mark. We did not know if it would work as we had never detonated this type of weapon before. Remember the Trinity test was an implosion type weapon unlike "Little Boy". Due to time constraints Little Boy was developed as a parallel program to the implosion type weapon.

Suppose we had a "demonstration blast" for the benefit of the wartime Japanese leadership. There was no way to actually prove to them that what they saw was really "what they saw". In addition, there was no way to insure the bomb would work as advertised and we did not have extra bombs (bombs plural) ready to go at the time. Better to use that bomb against a MILITARY target and reap some actual benefit from it than wasting a precious military commodity on a "demonstration".

As far as the basic question, put yourself in Truman's shoes for a moment. Every general tells you an invasion of the Japanese island will cost close to half million American lives and millions of Japanese civilian lives as well. Your troops have been slugging it out in the Pacific for close to four years and every island closer to Japan we get the fighting gets tougher and Allied casualties pile up. Now, add to the troubles you face hostile American troops from Europe who feel their duty has been done. There were a lot of soldiers who had it and damned if they would be transported across country and sent on a ship to die at the hands of the Japanese. Was it fair of Truman to command these soldiers to fight/die in the Pacific after their service in Europe? That is just a portion of the problems Truman had to consider. Mass desertion was a real consideration for the US miltary in 1945.

You may disagree, but dropping those two atomic bombs on Japan was no more morally reprehensible than any other action taken during the war. When you consider the atrocities committed by Japan against allied POWs and Chinese citizens, the atomic bombs were downright humane.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:10 AM punisher is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punisher
This is when actually reading a history book would help you understand what was happening at the time, as well as save you from looking like a fool when you post.

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a question mark. We did not know if it would work as we had never detonated this type of weapon before. Remember the Trinity test was an implosion type weapon unlike "Little Boy". Due to time constraints Little Boy was developed as a parallel program to the implosion type weapon.

Me looking like a fool? Thats a laugh. They didn't test a gun type bomb because they were certain it would work. You are the one here who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Quote:
Suppose we had a "demonstration blast" for the benefit of the wartime Japanese leadership. There was no way to actually prove to them that what they saw was really "what they saw". In addition, there was no way to insure the bomb would work as advertised and we did not have extra bombs (bombs plural) ready to go at the time. Better to use that bomb against a MILITARY target and reap some actual benefit from it than wasting a precious military commodity on a "demonstration".
Hiroshima wasn't a military target, despite what Truman claimed at the time.

Quote:
As far as the basic question, put yourself in Truman's shoes for a moment. Every general tells you an invasion of the Japanese island will cost close to half million American lives and millions of Japanese civilian lives as well. Your troops have been slugging it out in the Pacific for close to four years and every island closer to Japan we get the fighting gets tougher and Allied casualties pile up. Now, add to the troubles you face hostile American troops from Europe who feel their duty has been done. There were a lot of soldiers who had it and damned if they would be transported across country and sent on a ship to die at the hands of the Japanese. Was it fair of Truman to command these soldiers to fight/die in the Pacific after their service in Europe? That is just a portion of the problems Truman had to consider. Mass desertion was a real consideration for the US miltary in 1945.

You may disagree, but dropping those two atomic bombs on Japan was no more morally reprehensible than any other action taken during the war. When you consider the atrocities committed by Japan against allied POWs and Chinese citizens, the atomic bombs were downright humane.
I've already explained the fact that Japan would've surrendered anyway - what I am talking about know is how the opinions of those who made the bomb were ignored. Try and keep up.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:47 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck

I've already explained the fact that Japan would've surrendered anyway - what I am talking about know is how the opinions of those who made the bomb were ignored. Try and keep up.
You never have explained why you think Japan was about to surrender.....and why if they were near surrender they didn't do it after the first bomb was dropped? Also don't forget there was a coup in the works by high ranking military officers to not broadcast the emporers surrender message to the people of Japan..
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:52 AM joemama is online now  
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punisher
 
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It's like trying to explain pooping in the toilet instead of in the corner to a kid banging his head against the wall while wearing his favorite helmet. Schmuck I love you as you do keep the forums interesting sir.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:52 AM punisher is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
You never have explained why you think Japan was about to surrender.....and why if they were near surrender they didn't do it after the first bomb was dropped? Also don't forget there was a coup in the works by high ranking military officers to not broadcast the emporers surrender message to the people of Japan..

The coup failed. I have covered, at length, the historical fact that Japan was about to surrender anyway. This fact does cast what the US did in a bad light, so nobody here will actually beleive the evidence presented to them, no matter how strong. So I gave on and moved on to another point.

Talking to you lot is really difficult. You just don't fucking pay attention to what is being posted - you just identify the poster as 'liberal' or 'conservative' and then trot out some canned flame. Really pathetic.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:55 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
The coup failed. I have covered, at length, the historical fact that Japan was about to surrender anyway. This fact does cast what the US did in a bad light, so nobody here will actually beleive the evidence presented to them, no matter how strong. So I gave on and moved on to another point.

Talking to you lot is really difficult. You just don't fucking pay attention to what is being posted - you just identify the poster as 'liberal' or 'conservative' and then trot out some canned flame. Really pathetic.

Well actual notes from the Japenese who were at the meetings deciding that they would NOT surrender even after the first bomb say you pulled these facts out of your ass.

Once again you not only act like the pit's resident fool but proove it.
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:10 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock
Well actual notes from the Japenese who were at the meetings deciding that they would NOT surrender even after the first bomb say you pulled these facts out of your ass.

Once again you not only act like the pit's resident fool but proove it.

Evidence? No, kthxbye
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:11 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Evidence? No, kthxbye


What? You need the same evidence presented as the Last time you talked out your ass on this subject? Why? You didn't learn anything the first time.
I keep forgetting that I have to keep all data around for years so morons like you can't spew the same garbage once people forget about the last thread covering it.
Fact: We dropped a bomb on Hiroshima
Fact: We dropped leaflets saying we would do it again if Japan did not surrender
Fact: The Japanese leadership told it's citizens that we were lying and that our claims about the first bomb were baseless. This is according to people that WERE AT THE FUCKING MEETINGS MAKING THE DECISION NOT TO SURRENDER. Go read some actual history dipshit
Fact: :You are a fucking fool
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:21 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock
What? You need the same evidence presented as the Last time you talked out your ass on this subject? Why? You didn't learn anything the first time.
I keep forgetting that I have to keep all data around for years so morons like you can't spew the same garbage once people forget about the last thread covering it.
Fact: We dropped a bomb on Hiroshima
Fact: We dropped leaflets saying we would do it again if Japan did not surrender
Fact: The Japanese leadership told it's citizens that we were lying and that our claims about the first bomb were baseless. This is according to people that WERE AT THE FUCKING MEETINGS MAKING THE DECISION NOT TO SURRENDER. Go read some actual history dipshit
Fact: :You are a fucking fool

Like I said, your flag-waving retard blinkers will not let you see any alternative to the US being the most holy nation to ever grace the planet, so I gave up trying to convince you.

None of you ACTUALLY READ what I say. Seriously, go back and read it all. You might learn something.
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:22 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
The coup failed. I have covered, at length, the historical fact that Japan was about to surrender anyway. This fact does cast what the US did in a bad light, so nobody here will actually beleive the evidence presented to them, no matter how strong. So I gave on and moved on to another point.

Talking to you lot is really difficult. You just don't fucking pay attention to what is being posted - you just identify the poster as 'liberal' or 'conservative' and then trot out some canned flame. Really pathetic.
Where have you "covered this at length" and where are you getting these "historical facts" that even the Japanese themselves would dispute today?
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:32 AM joemama is online now  
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