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Aziraphale
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanchi
Schmuck, why was there an attempted coup on the Emperor after he announced the surender?

I don't think that his mom has let him see Episode III yet.
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Old 05-10-2005, 01:47 AM Aziraphale is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanchi
Schmuck, why was there an attempted coup on the Emperor after he announced the surender?

The key word here is 'attempted'. It failed quite miserably.

I know you think you are an intellectual match for me, but you are deluding yourself.
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Old 05-10-2005, 04:44 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanchi
Schmuck, why was there an attempted coup on the Emperor after he announced the surender?
You're asking someone who writes their own version of history. Actually the coup was to prevent the surrender (which was recorded on tape to be broadcast across the country) from being known to the people. A few high ranking officers who had a taste of power themselves...didn't want to give it up simply on the word of the Emporer and wanted to take control of the country. They knew that the vast majority of the people worshipped the Emporer as a god and would do whatever he said......btw this all took place after the second bomb was dropped and historians now see that the Emporer was not seriously considering surrender before then and a handful of officers very nearly led to the destruction of the entire Island afterward.
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Old 05-10-2005, 04:57 AM joemama is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
The key word here is 'attempted'. It failed quite miserably.

I know you think you are an intellectual match for me, but you are deluding yourself.

You pompous arrogant pseudo-intellectual elitist jackass, you are right in one aspect sanchi isn’t your intellectual match, he is way fucking smarter than your smarmy little ass.
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Old 05-10-2005, 06:18 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
The key word here is 'attempted'. It failed quite miserably.

I know you think you are an intellectual match for me, but you are deluding yourself.


Yes you are smarter than everyone in this thread. Thats why every point you invented was completely trashed with such ease

See a mental health specialist. You need some antipsychotics. Your delusions are getting the best of you.
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Old 05-10-2005, 07:43 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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kindred
 
Japan did not view a nuclear device as a feasible option, they were focusing their efforts on developing biological weapons for delivery to the US mainland. Thats right, the US mainland, they developed a massive long range bomber for this purpose and I believe the delivery weapon was a special bomb that contained infected insects.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:41 AM kindred is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindred
Japan did not view a nuclear device as a feasible option, they were focusing their efforts on developing biological weapons for delivery to the US mainland. Thats right, the US mainland, they developed a massive long range bomber for this purpose and I believe the delivery weapon was a special bomb that contained infected insects.
Don't forget the HE Balloon Bombs
http://web.umr.edu/~rogersda/forensi...ombs%20new.htm
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:44 AM ViriiK is offline  
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kindred
 
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Ah yes those. Although they would have been a good terrorize weapon and probably distracting, they dont compare to the potential mass death resulting from their biological plans. It was sheer fortune that we used our nukes before they used their bioweapons.
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:50 AM kindred is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindred
Japan did not view a nuclear device as a feasible option, they were focusing their efforts on developing biological weapons for delivery to the US mainland. Thats right, the US mainland, they developed a massive long range bomber for this purpose and I believe the delivery weapon was a special bomb that contained infected insects.

STFU you stupid ignorant imbecilic fuck................


http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/jp-hung.htm

Quote:
Japanese Atomic Program (PhysicsToday) -- The Japanese atomic program was a program by the Empire of Japan to develop a genzai bakudan, an atomic bomb during World War II. The program started around the same time as the U.S. Manhattan Project. Most experts believe that the program was small, and managed neither to refine enough uranium-235 nor to breed enough plutonium needed to make a workable device, although there are indications that Japan had a more sizable program than is commonly understood. One isolated and disputed report even claims that an atomic bomb was tested and detonated on August 12, 1945 near Hungnam, North Korea, shortly after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In any case, the surrender of Japan three days later on August 15 halted all developments before Japan could finish developing the weapon.

http://www.physicsdaily.com/physics/...atomic_program

Quote:
Disputed reports about the nuclear program in Konan in 1945
Very little is known about the size of the atomic program in Konan though it is conventionally thought to have been quite small in comparison with the successful U.S. effort. In 1946, a journalist named David Snell, working for the Atlanta Constitution, wrote a sensational story which claimed that Japan had in fact successfully developed and tested a nuclear weapon in Konan. Snell had served in the military during the war and was assigned to the 24th Criminal Investigation Detachment in Korea. During this time in Korea he interviewed "a Japanese officer, who said he was in charge of counter intelligence at the Konan project before the fall of Japan", known under the pseudonym Capt. Tsetusuo Wakabayashi.

According to Snell, the program was able to assemble a complete nuclear weapon in a cave in Konan and detonate it on August 12, 1945 on an unmanned ship nearby. Reportedly, the weapon produced a mushroom shaped cloud with a diameter of about 100 m (the first American bomb, "Trinity", had a mushroom cloud some three times the size of that), and also destroyed several ships in the test area. To the observers 20 mi (32 km) away, the bomb was brighter than the rising sun (a suspiciously common cliché about nuclear testing). Snell then claimed that the Russian Army captured Konan shortly thereafter, imprisoned the scientists and seized the remaining materials (and for some reason kept the entire thing a secret).

Even in its own time, Snell's story was viewed with suspicion. A New York Times article published the day after noted that US Army Intelligence officers found Snell's tale amusing, and both American and Japanese scientists found it to be spurious. The paper quoted an MIT scientist working for the army as having dismissed it completely: "There is no information here to justify such a story."

Mainstream historians dispute that the Japanese program ever came anywhere close to developing an atomic bomb, and cite the massive amounts of evidence that the Japanese program was small and insubstantial (compared to the dearth of evidence that it was in any way successful).

A 1985 book by Robert Wilcox repeated many of Snell's claims, and was critically panned. A review by a Department of Energy employee in the journal Military Affairs degraded it:

Journalist Wilcox' book describes the Japanese wartime atomic energy projects. This is a laudable, in that it illuminates a little-known episode; nevertheless, the work is marred by Wilcox' seeming eagerness to show that Japan created an atomic bomb. Tales of Japanese atomic explosions, one a fictional attack on Los Angeles, the other an unsubstantiated account of a post-Hiroshima test, begin the book. (Wilcox accepts the test story because the author [Snell], "was a distinguished journalist"). The tales, combined with Wilcox' failure to discuss the difficulty of translating scientific theory into into a workable bomb, obscure the actual story of the Japanese effort: uncoordinated laboratory-scale projects which took paths least likely to produce a bomb.
In the historical journal Isis, two historians of science said only of Wilcox's work that his thesis stood "on the flimsiest and most unconvincing of grounds," and surmised that the hidden agenda of such conspiracy theories was "to furnish a new exculpation for America's dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki."




While the above, at the beginning, is accurate in its discussion of how much is known about Konan, it is one-sided and biased regarding Snell and Wilcox. The forward to Wilcox’s book, Japan’s Secret War, was written by Professor Derek deSolla Price, head of Yale’s history of science department and a giant in the field, a fact that is left out of the above discussion. Price wholeheartedly endorsed it, as did other historians and reviewers. James L. Stockesbury, author of A Short History of World War II, called it “Fascinating. I had no idea the Japanese were working as seriously on an atomic bomb as the book indicates, and this has to modify our perception of one of the crucial issues of the war.” Encyclopaedia Britannica Online lists Japan's Secret War as its sole source for Japan's work on the atomic bomb (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=57369). There were controversial aspects of the book that were attacked. But the book was published at a time, 1985, when practically no one outside of a few select scientists knew the Japanese even had an atomic bomb project. Most thought they were solely victims of the bomb and this was used to attack America. Except for the controversial part - the possibility that Japan had moved their program to Korea and possibly gotten farther than science had known - the book accurately portrayed what had happened on the mainland predominately through interviews with Japanese who had been part of the program and formerly top secret documents that had not been seen or used by historians prior.

Whoever wrote the above, has not read Japan’s Secret War. The book does not repeat many of Snell’s claims. Snell’s article had long been buried when it was recounted at the start of Japan’s Secret War. It was only used to launch into research about what happened at Konan, which is known as Hungnam in Korean. The basis for the possibility that Konan housed an atomic project came primarily from formerly top secret US intelligence documents, like this army G-2 summary of May 1-15, 1946, written by Col. Cecil W. Nist, which can be found in the National Archives (Record Group 319, Box 739): “Of increasing interest have been recent reports about an apparent undercover research laboratory operated by the Japanese at...Hungnam. Many of the reports are from Japanese who formerly held positions in this company. And these reports, received separately, are surprisingly uniform as to content...All reports agree that research and experiments on atomic energy were being conducted in a section of the Hungnam plant...Further reports state that the actual experiments on atomic energy were conducted in Japan, and the Hungnam plant was opened for the development of the practical application of atomic energy to a bomb or other military use...It is felt that a great deal of credence should be attached to these reports...”

The book was the first to reveal the uranium oxide aboard Nazi submarine U-234 destined for Japan's project at the end of the war. A major premises in it is that there is more to be found out about what the Japanese did regarding their atomic project than has so far come to light. To be fair and accurate, these facts should be included in any discussion of disputed reports about Konan/Hungnam.
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Old 05-10-2005, 01:36 PM arthur pendragon is offline  
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kindred
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur pendragon

Although they had a nuclear program, they didnt focus their efforts on it as much as they did biological weapons as evidenced by their use in China. Bioweapons they knew for a certainty, nuclear weapons were still theoretical at the time. FACT. Before calling me an ignorant fuck. Go do some research first.

Quote:
Unit 731 was a special division of the Japanese Army, a scientific and military elite. It had a huge budget specially authorised by the Emperor, to develop weapons of mass destruction that would win the war for Japan. America and Germany had their nuclear arms race. Japan put its faith in germs.

Unit 731

Unit 731 was the world's largest and most comprehensive biological warfare programme. Inside Unit 731 the Japanese conducted research and human experimentation on a scale unlike any in the history of humankind.

More than 10,000 Chinese, Korean and Russian POWs were slaughtered in these experimental facilities. They were used as human laboratory rats, to research, breed and refine biological weapons.

They were treated as sub-human, and live vivisections were common. The products of the research were tested on Chinese civilians. It is estimated that biological weapons killed more than 300,000 between 1938-1945.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...nt/1796044.stm
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:15 PM kindred is offline  
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Sanchi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
The key word here is 'attempted'. It failed quite miserably.

I know you think you are an intellectual match for me, but you are deluding yourself.

Correct, but it blows your "theory" of the Japanesse wanting an unconditional surender out of the water and you didnt even answer the question.

The military leaders wanted a conditional surender, no war crime tribunals, no ocupation, Japan stays in command of its military forces and all land controled by Japan at the time, and the Emperor stays in power. This wasn't a conditional surender, it was a cease fire.

One more question for Schmuck, when did the last Japanese forces surender to the USA?
Old 05-10-2005, 03:24 PM Sanchi is offline  
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el aye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
Yes it was justified in WWII

Do you think it's better to do a landscale invasion of Japan with the both civilian and military population willing to commit Sepiku for the Emperor against a force of 1,000,000 US Soldiers, over 500 Navy Ships, 10,000 Bomber Fleet, etc required to do the job estimating 75% casualty way more than the estimated 20% in Normandy?

We lost 6800 Marines at Iwo Jima which that island was critical for the invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall). And guess what happened when we dropped the bombs on Japan. Their deaths at Iwo Jima had been for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridPyro
And your example was pure genius. The Japanese were not about the quit, they wouldn't have just given up.


I haven't really read the thread, but I would like to throw in that many military historians believe that the napalm dropped by the B-29s was a much greater influence on Japan's surrender rather than the nuclear detonations. The deaths caused by napalm outweigh the deaths from the nuclear bombs by far.
Old 05-10-2005, 03:27 PM el aye is offline  
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2slow
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lol are you counting that one crazy old man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanchi
One more question for Schmuck, when did the last Japanese forces surender to the USA?
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:30 PM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanchi
Correct, but it blows your "theory" of the Japanesse wanting an unconditional surender out of the water and you didnt even answer the question.

The military leaders wanted a conditional surender, no war crime tribunals, no ocupation, Japan stays in command of its military forces and all land controled by Japan at the time, and the Emperor stays in power. This wasn't a conditional surender, it was a cease fire.

One more question for Schmuck, when did the last Japanese forces surender to the USA?

It doesn't do anything about the historical fact that Japan was ready to surrender. Yes, there would've been a military coup if the surrender had happened before the atomic bombs. It would've been put down easily as well.

My point still stands, and like everyone attempting to refute me and failing, you are a fucking moron.
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:38 PM Carl Rove is offline  
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Sanchi
 
Quote:
It doesn't do anything about the historical fact that Japan was ready to surrender. Yes, there would've been a military coup if the surrender had happened before the atomic bombs. It would've been put down easily as well.

My point still stands, and like everyone attempting to refute me and failing, you are a fucking moron.
Japan wanted to call a ceasefire, not to surrender.

Last edited by Sanchi; 05-10-2005 at 04:05 PM..
Old 05-10-2005, 04:01 PM Sanchi is offline  
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