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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post

Nice pic, doesnt get you off the hook though...
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:37 PM arthur pendragon is offline  
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#46  

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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur pendragon View Post
Nice pic, doesnt get you off the hook though...

You didn't clarify anything!

How can I reply to anything when you can't decide what war you're talking about?
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:39 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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#47  

TheHandiMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Attempt to make a deal with stiff imperial brass while US POWs and Chinese civilians are being slaughtered the whole time? I'll pass, thanks.

So a better idea is to bomb Japanese civilians?

I posted this in another thread however it fits in here so I'll just quote myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHandiMan View Post
Emperor Hirohito wanted to surrender however the senior military officials wouldn't allow him too (Japanese tradition is never surrender). Instead of an outright no conditional surrender (which is pointless to ask Japanese) the general's wanted to come to more of a ceasefire agreement (remain in control of seized territories, remain militarily independent, no war crime trails..etc).

They tried to use Russia too broker a ceasefire with the US through radio transmissions (which were later revealed to have been intercepted/decoded/interpreted by American intelligence). However it was never in Stalin's interest for the war to end, he was ambitious for more territory and so he declared war on Japan.

(it's important to note that Russia had a pact to declare war within 3 months of Nazi Germany surrender. And after Germany's surrender the American objective in the pacific theater was to end the war before Russia could enter.)

Fearing that the Soviet's would benefit to much from a waring with Japan the bombs were received the green light and were dropped with the intent of forcing Japan to surrender.

This is just a overview of the events toward the end of the war.

I think it's fair to say that Japan realized they had lost the war the moment the imperial fleet was sunk.

So back to the original question..did Japan try to surrender?
It all depends on how you look at it, however they were defiantly willing to negotiate.


We probably could have ended the war sooner with fewer deaths on all sides by:
1) offer retention of the Emperor for a quick surrender
2) threaten Russian invasion
3) atomic destruction as the alternative.

None of these key incentives to surrender were used prior to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

United States Strategic Bombing Survey states:

"The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. The Emperor, the lord privy seal, the prime minister, the foreign minister and the navy minister had decided as early as May of 1945 that the war should be ended even it meant acceptance of defeat on allied terms."

This is just look at the bombings from a purely military perspective, if we were to look at the bombings in a moral light...well..

"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?" - Leó Szilárd


This is probably gonna come out all jumbled. I wrote out a more detailed post a couple days ago but the server messed up and I couldn't log back in till today and didn't feel like putting as much effort into it again.
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Last edited by TheHandiMan; 11-06-2007 at 08:48 PM..
Old 11-06-2007, 08:40 PM TheHandiMan is offline  
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#48  

Free_Willy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
You didn't clarify anything!

How can I reply to anything when you can't decide what war you're talking about?

Dude seriously, just click on his profile and hit ignore, I did, and its refreshing seeing all the decent posts without his shit staining up the place. Hes never said anything truly worth reading or new anyway. Hes a real troll, doesnt even try to participate, his only interest is in generating anger, like a little kid, spare yourself the crap of dealing with something his mother should have years ago. Im being serious.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:47 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHandiMan View Post
So a better idea is to bomb Japanese civilians?

So it's a better idea to attempt to negotiate while American troops die? How many dead US troops that would die during negotiations are worth a "ceasefire"?

Quote:
Emperor Hirohito wanted to surrender however the senior military officials wouldn't allow him too (Japanese tradition is never surrender). Instead of an outright no conditional surrender (which is pointless to ask Japanese) the general's wanted to come to more of a ceasefire agreement (remain in control of seized territories, remain militarily independent, no war crime trails..etc).
So you're in favor of all of those stipulations? No war crime trials? Let them have the parts of China that they seized? Unacceptable.

Quote:
Fearing that the Soviet's would benefit to much from a waring with Japan the bombs were received the green light and were dropped with the intent of forcing Japan to surrender.
Once again, would you prefer the alternative? I'm sure Stalin would of been as nice to the Japanese as he was to the Cossacks at Lienz.

Quote:
So back to the original question..did Japan try to surrender?
It all depends on how you look at it, however they were defiantly willing to negotiate.
Once again: Would the deaths that would undoubtedly continue during such negotiations be worth it?

Quote:
1) offer retention of the Emperor for a quick surrender
Unacceptable, with all the atrocities committed.

Quote:
2) threaten Russian invasion
As if it wasn't a threat already.

Quote:
"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?" - Leó Szilárd
Apples to oranges. We wouldn't of been in a state of near defeat as the Japanese were in that example he talks about.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:08 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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#50  

TheHandiMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
So it's a better idea to attempt to negotiate while American troops die?

It would've been best to negotiate in the months leading up to the dropping of the bombs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
How many dead US troops that would die during negotiations are worth a "ceasefire"?

I can't answer this. But can you tell me how many Japanese civilian lives are worth a ceasefire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
So you're in favor of all of those stipulations? No war crime trials? Let them have the parts of China that they seized? Unacceptable.

It's called negotiation. The Japanese really weren't in a position to argue from and they knew it so I doubt any of this would've been given to them if talks had taken place. Except for certain individuals gaining a pass or immunity in certain trials or hearings. (which ended up happening anyways)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Once again, would you prefer the alternative? I'm sure Stalin would of been as nice to the Japanese as he was to the Cossacks at Lienz.

This is all under the assumption that the bombs ended the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Once again: Would the deaths that would undoubtedly continue during such negotiations be worth it?

If the war had been ended earlier without dropping the bombs, which some feel would've happened had we talked we likely would've seen less deaths.

and we defiantly wouldn't be having this debate nor any animosity towards us from using the bombs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Unacceptable, with all the atrocities committed.



You realize he ended up getting it anyways right? In fact there's speculation as to the lengths General MacArthur went too to ensure the Emperor kept his position, however it's defiantly clear that he was working too exonerate Hirohito put the blame on Tojo, who ended up being executed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
As if it wasn't a threat already.

I've never seen anything that shows Japan was aware the Soviets were going to attack not to mention they had open communication with them right up till they attacked so...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Apples to oranges. We wouldn't of been in a state of near defeat as the Japanese were in that example he talks about.

wait what?

Since the Japanese were in a state of near defeat it's ok to drop a nuclear bomb on them? Targeting civilians no less.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:14 PM TheHandiMan is offline  
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#51  

Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHandiMan View Post
It would've been best to negotiate in the months leading up to the dropping of the bombs.

You have no basis for that claim. What would of been "best" is subjective.



Quote:
I can't answer this. But can you tell me how many Japanese civilian lives are worth a ceasefire?
No, but I can tell you how many Japanese Civilian lives were worth ending the war.



Quote:
It's called negotiation. The Japanese really weren't in a position to argue from and they knew it so I doubt any of this would've been given to them if talks had taken place. Except for certain individuals gaining a pass or immunity in certain trials or hearings. (which ended up happening anyways)
We didn't want to negotiate! We saw what they did to the Chinese and our POWs, and we didn't want to come to terms with someone who did those things without regrets. We had no need for barters or prisoner swaps. The more time we wasted with negotiation, the more Chinese and American lives lost.




Quote:
This is all under the assumption that the bombs ended the war.
Hirohito referred to the bombs in his surrender declaration:

Quote:
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.


Quote:
If the war had been ended earlier without dropping the bombs, which some feel would've happened had we talked we likely would've seen less deaths.

and we defiantly wouldn't be having this debate nor any animosity towards us from using the bombs.
Saying the war would of ended without an invasion of Japan is a bold claim, which you at least acknowledge is a scenario only accepted by "some."




Quote:


You realize he ended up getting it anyways right? In fact there's speculation as to the lengths General MacArthur went too to ensure the Emperor kept his position, however it's defiantly clear that he was working too exonerate Hirohito put the blame on Tojo, who ended up being executed.
I know. Don't get me started.



Quote:
I've never seen anything that shows Japan was aware the Soviets were going to attack not to mention they had open communication with them right up till they attacked so...
What, you think that they turned a complete blind eye to the Soviets, never thinking that there was ANY chance they would go into China and/or the Japanese mainland?




Quote:
wait what?

Since the Japanese were in a state of near defeat it's ok to drop a nuclear bomb on them? Targeting civilians no less.
I'm saying that we had a purpose of finality when using the bombs when we were winning the way. If that example is going to be valid, we would of had to be on the throes of defeat when Germany would be to use one against us. Any usage of one against civilians in an act of desperation when we would of had a standing army pushing them back over there would of been very different circumstances.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:59 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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#52  

Malakai
 
Always a time for sadness when someone who fought for freedom dies. Iraq, Vietnam, WWII, it doesn't matter. These were brave people doing what they thought was right, risking their lives to protect the people they cared about.
Whether the people issuing the orders at the top of the chain of command were right is another discussion entirely.

The correctness or incorrectness of the politics behind it does not mean I don't respect sacrifice and service, or the good intentions of a soldier doing his duty. Unfortunately many of your minds haven't developed to a point where you can think critically and separate different aspects of an issue or event.

This is why so many retards think wanting the war over and our troops home, and having congress pull the funding for the war, means we "don't support the troops". It's childish idiocy that the media and administration uses to further their agenda's at your expense. As if wanting to get our young people out of harms way equates to not supporting them.

I'd lump thinking every Arab in the middle east wants you dead because your free and prosperous into this category as well, as if peoples minds function differently because their skin's a different color or they were born on a different continent. Do you want to suicide bomb free rich people on the other side of the globe if you've never met them and they don't bother you?

Enjoy your ignorance



edit: I agree, and it is really pretty self evident, that had Japan dropped nukes on 2 heavily populated American cities then lost the war, our history books and popular culture would consider them war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Last edited by Malakai; 11-07-2007 at 12:11 AM..
Old 11-07-2007, 12:00 AM Malakai is offline  
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#53  

TheHandiMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
You have no basis for that claim. What would of been "best" is subjective.


I meant that we could've started talks months before the bombs. That way all those Americans that "would've" died during negotiations would've likely died had we dropped the bombs, if that makes sense..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
No, but I can tell you how many Japanese Civilian lives were worth ending the war.


I guess this is where you and I differ, if you feel ending the war was worth the amount of civilian deaths


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
We didn't want to negotiate! We saw what they did to the Chinese and our POWs, and we didn't want to come to terms with someone who did those things without regrets. We had no need for barters or prisoner swaps.


This is just arrogant. The whole idea that we can't talk because 'were better than you' or 'were punishing you' or whatever is just plain arrogant and needs to stop.

and how can you ask me a question like "how many American lives are worth peace" and then say we had no need for barters or prisoner swaps?

We should always be talking, even in times of war no matter who it is or what it's about including our enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
The more time we wasted with negotiation, the more Chinese and American lives lost.


this is why i said "It would've been best to negotiate in the months leading up to the dropping of the bombs" In my opinion it's pretty hard to "waste time" by negotiating.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Hirohito referred to the bombs in his surrender declaration:


Hirohito wanted to surrender since May that a good 2 months before the bombs dropped. And the bombs weren't the only things mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Saying the war would of ended without an invasion of Japan is a bold claim, which you at least acknowledge is a scenario only accepted by "some."


Maybe at the time it would've been a bold statement, at least to the ill informed. However today it can be said with almost certainty.

excerpt from wikipedia (source link below)

Quote:
A year after the war, the United States Army Air Forces's Strategic Bombing Survey (Pacific War) reported that they had underestimated the power of strategic bombing combined with naval blockade and previous military defeats to bring Japan to unconditional surrender without invasion. By July 1945, only a fraction of the planned strategic bombing force had been deployed yet there were few targets left worth the effort. In hindsight, it would have been more effective to use land-based and carrier-based air power to strike against merchant shipping and begin aerial mining at a much earlier date so as to link up with the effective Allied submarine anti-shipping campaign and completely isolate the island nation. This would have accelerated the strangulation of Japan and ended the war sooner.
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
I'm saying that we had a purpose of finality when using the bombs when we were winning the way. If that example is going to be valid, we would of had to be on the throes of defeat when Germany would be to use one against us. Any usage of one against civilians in an act of desperation when we would of had a standing army pushing them back over there would of been very different circumstances.

So if it's an act of desperation it's bad? I'm sorry but they both have the same effect, therefore I'm gonna have to say their both bad. (atrocities would be a better term)
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Last edited by TheHandiMan; 11-07-2007 at 01:24 AM..
Old 11-07-2007, 01:13 AM TheHandiMan is offline  
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#54  

jubjub
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Quote:
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Define winning....

OkieDokie...

p.s. a Taco for the first one that can properly identify this picture.
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:10 AM jubjub is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
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OkieDokie...

p.s. a Taco for the first one that can properly identify this picture.

do we have to give the actual name of the ship the absolute surrender was signed on?
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:12 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free_Willy View Post
So when does it end Arthur?

Direct question: Define winning, when its proven the only reasons for invading in the first place were lies.

It ends when there are no more radical extremist Muslims killing anyone who 1) does not submit to Islam 2) does not kill anyone who doesn't practice their version of Islam 3) ceases attempting to submit the entire world to Islamic domination and Shari law.

And willy, its only been proven in the minds of complete imbeciles fools and traitors.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:12 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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UID=growler
 
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I met one of the crew members on that plane before. Can't remember if it was Paul Tibbets or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
do we have to give the actual name of the ship the absolute surrender was signed on?

it is in the image name
Old 11-07-2007, 09:16 AM UID=growler is offline  
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Quote:
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s

talk with them?

you have got to be kidding me, right? We blew one up in their face: They ignored it. It took TWO of the things to get them to give up.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:55 AM lopoetve is offline  
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lopoetve
 
Quote:
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So a better idea is to bomb Japanese civilians?

I posted this in another thread however it fits in here so I'll just quote myself

Your post is full of shit. Go read flyboys and try again. Hirohito kept demanding a decisive victory: he was almost childish about it, in fact. He was as much the cause as anyone else in that mess.

Politely fuck off until you know what you're talking about.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:58 AM lopoetve is offline  
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