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Ray Charles
 
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Originally Posted by Jim Morrison View Post
I hope you don't mind me taking a swing at your posts Ray

It's actually quite a good assumption if you take an objective look at the situation. The material world exists without any perceivable interaction with any supernatural force, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that anything alive or intelligent ever interacted with or modified any part of the universe. The only evidence that anything supernatural has ever occurred are from the accounts and experiences of humans. Humans have been making up all kinds of crazy supernatural nonsense for thousands of years and everything that is testable about their claims has been proven wrong. Why in the world would you believe the supernatural existed if that was your only evidence? The culprit is infinitely more likely to be human perception of existence and their flawed observances of it.

Other people, other situations don't mean a whole lot to me. I acknowledge that there's been lots of people who have falsely claimed to witness miracles throughout history, even other Christians who have done that. All the same, their experiences aren't my experiences. I've examined my own experiences from a standpoint that's as objective as possible. I cannot help but trust my senses when I observe the world. If I'm wrong because I didn't in fact see what I think I did, then there's no way to correct myself.

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Just because something has the appearance of having occurred without any reasonable explanation doesn't mean that a likely cause is the supernatural. How many times have people applied your logic throughout history and how many times have they been wrong? I'd say its infinitely more likely that its an individuals or groups distorted perception that is the missing factor in a seemingly unexplainable occurrence rather than some power that can magically alter reality for enigmatic aims, wouldn't you?

God (and the supernatural) has whatever properties are required for someone to reconcile him with their personal beliefs and experiences.
Had a similar event happened without any religious overtones, I would not give any significance to it past it being an unlikely event. The fact that this was a group of people who asked God for help, and this thing happened immediately changes that for me. The proximity of the events is what really makes it stand out in my mind. I believe that other miracles have happened, but I use this one because it's more clear-cut than most, and I witnessed it firsthand. I believe that I've been objective about the whole thing. In my mind its not likely that my perceptions were distorted.
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:46 AM Ray Charles is offline  
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Ray Charles
 
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Originally Posted by ephekt View Post
You're ruling out natural causes though, aren't you? Despite the gross lack of evidence for any deity, you've decided to presuppose anything that cannot be explained naturally - at the time - is due to the supernatural. A force we have absolutely no evidence to support.

My naturalistic view is based on observation and nothing more. I do not need to presuppose that an invisible god is behind the scenes pulling strings when something I can't explain happens. I do not take lack of natural evidence to be evidence of the supernatural. I would technically be a 'weak' atheist, but I only hold my position because there is no evidence to suggest that I should believe.

My views are based on observation as well as reason. When you see something you can't explain, it makes sense that something caused it, even if you don't understand the mechanism. This is not an argument that's going to be proven 100% either way, but there comes a time when reasonable doubts have been dispelled.

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If you were truly interested in being open you would be an agnostic or weak atheist, not a theist; and certainly not a Christian.
You're not exactly open to all possibilities though, are you? As a theists you've already ruled all any chance of god not existing.
Being open-minded does not mean that you forever refuse to make a decision. I'm open minded because I've fairly evaluated all the evidence that I've found. Even now, if there were something that could overturn everything I've seen before now, I would gladly change my views. I'm only interested in finding the truth in the matter, and so far the evidence I've seen leans heavily towards God being there.

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I don't think you actually understand probability. Everything is improbable, from our existence to a leaf falling on a given spot on the ground. That doesn't change a damn thing; something being improbable does not preclude it from happening.

Also, if you're going to argue from improbability you need to prove that your numbers are correct. Pulling numbers out your ass doesn't prove anything.
We can fiddle with probability all we want, but we need to look at things in a way that makes sense. A leaf falling on the ground is improbable if you look at the huge sequence of events that led up to the leaf falling. What makes better sense is to look at each of these events.

If you plant a tree, there's a good chance it will grow.
If the tree grows, there's a good chance it will grow leaves.
If the tree grows leaves, there's a good chance that some leaves will fall.
If the leaves fall, there's a good chance they will fall under the tree.

What I'm doing is using my knowledge about the problem to better define it. If you point to any random spot on the ground it may be improbable that a leaf will fall there; but if you use the knowledge available to you then it's not really that improbable that you can predict where leaves may fall.

The difference between a leaf and the miracle I explained above is that the leaf arrived on the ground through a series of relatively probable events. The miracle was a single, incredibly improbable event.

I certainly can't give exact odds on the probability of this miracle occurring naturally. I can make a good conservative first estimate. I did so above. Say that you have 20 people randomly choose locations from a list of 20. Each person has a specific location that they are supposed to pick. Nobody knows the others picks until the end, when they're all revealed at the same time. The chances of every person making a correct 1 in 20 guess is 1 in 20^20, or roughly 1 in 10^25. In reality, the people had no list to pick from, and they picked all sorts of things, from buildings to colors to objects.

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The bible/Qu'ran/theology in general states that god will make everything peachy. I don't have to assume it.
It does not. I suggest that you read up before you start making claims. The Bible says that eventually we'll all be happy in heaven, but it makes no claims as to what'll happen to us on Earth. In fact, the Bible contains many accounts of people who have had horrible things happen to them even though they were faithful Christians. In The Bible, God judges everyone, and shows mercy to those who follow him. The people who truly repent of their sins are still punished for the act.

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This is proof positive of the presuppositions that you claim to avoid. Could you be anymore intellectually dishonest?
This sentence is not there to convince you of God's existence. This sentence is there to remind you that it's patently obvious bad things happen to good people. Look around and you'll see that.

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The term fact implies that something is either axiomatic (a priori knowledge) or empirically supported (a posteriori knowledge). Care to explain how your statement is supported by either?
Well, God doesn't save everyone because we see people who seemingly die for no reason. That seems like a posteriori knowledge to me.

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So I ask again, can you make a logical arguement that necessitates existence, without it being intellectually bankrupt?
This isn't gonna happen, because there's no argument out there that will necessitate God's existence. At the same time, a 100% bulletproof argument from logical fundamentals is rarely reasonable when you look at the real world. Sometimes all you can work on is circumstantial evidence, and sometimes circumstantial evidence is enough to convince a reasonable person.
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:31 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Ray Charles
 
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
You didn't start using this language -- explain, probable -- but you can't play. If it is possible to explain or model a phenomenon, it stops being supernatural. Whatever asserts its own everlasting immunity to explanations and models -- the supernatural -- does not, cannot exist in any meaningful sense.

Magical thinking got us the Dark Ages. It's mental slavery. Shrug it off.

I understand what you're saying, but what's wrong with supposing there's something that works outside of our ability to detect it? Because we can't or couldn't explain it doesn't mean that it can't exist. We can see its effects on the things we can observe.

We cannot define it well enough to work with it and give consistent results, but at the same time I would be a fool to ignore the evidence I've seen.
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:43 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Ray Charles
 
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
a)you are assuming there is only one probable "natural event"
b)you are assuming there is only one "lottery" for this "natural event" to occur in
c)you are assuming you have an understanding of "the rules"
d)you are assuming there is such a thing as "supernatural"

PS. at the Golden Tard

a) There's only one natural event I'm interested in, the one that I saw occur.
b) Again, we're looking at the probability of an event that's already defined, trying to determine the chance that it happened the way it did. That puts strict limits limits on the scope of the problem. As I explained above, I believe the only way it could have happened naturally is through random chance. The participants having prior knowledge of the area would be the natural choice to naturally explain the event, but that can be discounted because nobody did have prior knowledge. Someone suggested it was a consequence of group dynamics and suggestion, but it didn't really go anywhere. I don't see any other lotteries to look at.
c) I'm making as much sense of the problem as I can. I'll consider alternatives if you present them.
d) Given that the outing was a religious one, it would be foolish to not consider a supernatural cause of the event. I'm just not discounting the possibility.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:00 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
Fuck me.
I'd rather not. If it makes you feel better that preference was mine before and after seeing your picture.
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The strawmen has to tell everyone what he can do because he can't actually do it.
Right. So basically even if you write really simple sentences, they still do not make sense. At least this clears up that this isn't because of your garbled dictionary shit. You just don't make sense to begin with. Good thing this metaissue was made clear. At least you made something clear.
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Care to define metaphysics or metaprogramming for me? Atleast my babble is an attempt at something not just a 'hey shut up' 'shut up' 'shut up' 'i know' 'i know' 'i know' 'i know'
I'm much more happy seeing you define things as you go along. Makes for good entertainment.
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Your a fucking idiot, I never said you were a Christian. Where'd you get that from? Maybe some left over metaprogramming of Christianity from your ancestors?
My ancestors were hardly christian. Then again, perhaps you have a point. That must be why you're a fursuit wearing cocksucker that subscribes to any dogma that happens to be "exotic" in order to sound cutting edge.
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But hey lets take this another step further, something you always seem in capable of doing, so I'll help give you a little push too. Define 'improvement'. Could you do that without using the word 'improve' in your definition and without using any synonyms of improve? Can you?
Holy shit, this must be some relativity shit coming out of your flaps right now! This should be good!
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Make sure when your defining these things you provide examples. Cause you know, whats the use of a concept and a definition if you can't apply it to real life?
I'd probably define a lot of things, but with you, you can't really be sure tomorrow did someone define something to you, or did you just *gasp* imagine it
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Or is it too difficult for you to delve into that entanglement of feelings and delusions you've called 'improvement'. It was difficult for me too It's improvement, It's improvement, it's improvement, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel temporarily better.
Oh, and this is nice too. I think that's what makes you ...well you, and free_willy well ....free_willy. With your delusions and whatnot, it's a nice stepping stone to some obscure form of superiority. I think it's kind of delightful. It has something similar to the alphamales you see down at psych wards if you get to visit (not that you'd get to visit. You're more of a resident type person) ...you know, those guys that think they're chosen by god, or reborn greats of the past. It must be hard, everyday, for you.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:20 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Originally Posted by Ray Charles View Post
a) There's only one natural event I'm interested in, the one that I saw occur.
missed!
I don't care what natural event you are interested in. What I did say though, is that you were quick to state there is only one possible natural event of such type.
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b) Again, we're looking at the probability of an event that's already defined, trying to determine the chance that it happened the way it did. That puts strict limits limits on the scope of the problem. As I explained above, I believe the only way it could have happened naturally is through random chance. The participants having prior knowledge of the area would be the natural choice to naturally explain the event, but that can be discounted because nobody did have prior knowledge. Someone suggested it was a consequence of group dynamics and suggestion, but it didn't really go anywhere. I don't see any other lotteries to look at.
That doesn't matter. There is no suggestion, or even evidence, to suggest that any other outcome wouldn't be favourable in the terms that are being discussed.
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c) I'm making as much sense of the problem as I can. I'll consider alternatives if you present them.
You are presenting an argument where you state the occurance of life is pretty much a whim, based on an anomaly and one in a zillion kabillion chance. I'm very sure you cannot rationally explain how you came to these conclusions, nor can you really prove them, so saying you don't understand the rules sounds correct does it not?
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d) Given that the outing was a religious one, it would be foolish to not consider a supernatural cause of the event. I'm just not discounting the possibility.
It is foolish until you present a supernatural occurance of any kind.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:27 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Ray Charles
 
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Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
snip

First off, you need to make an effort to be concise and clear in your writing. It's difficult for me to even understand what you're trying to say, never mind what you mean.

I believe that understanding God is beyond our grasp because we've had essentially the same religious information for thousands of years, but can't seem to even agree on what God is.

I can't really help you understand God, but if you want to see His power then simply ask Him.

Let's skip the homework in the future, but I'll bite this time

What is the word |Void| attached to. -nothing's there
What is the word |Tao| attached to. -some crazy eastern thing
What is the word |Source| attached to. -creation, where stuff comes from
What is the word |God| attached to. -I actually didn't associate this with anything. I read this and just sat there for about a minute.

Do you want to think? -yes
Do you value thinking? -yes
Do you not value thinking? -no
Why? -Cuz thinking helps me learn stuff good.

Cite some examples of the glory of thinking and how they have aided humankind more so than Christ. If you do well in this assignment I will tell you what exactly this post mean.
Thinking is an action. I do it to help me understand something. There's no glory in it, it's just helpful. Nothing has aided humankind more than Christ.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:27 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Originally Posted by Ray Charles View Post
I understand what you're saying, but what's wrong with supposing there's something that works outside of our ability to detect it? Because we can't or couldn't explain it doesn't mean that it can't exist. We can see its effects on the things we can observe.
Once you take a supernatural "explanation" of cause and effect, you stop looking for a productive one. Even the spiritualist analogue of a "scientist" who acts to the best of his or her "expert" knowledge will tell you the results are hit or miss. Random. Mysterious.

This crapshoot is the miserable default state of being alive. We invented the scientific method because it's better: trial and error let us view the natural world as a machine functioning with clockwork precision. Surviving a plague or a thunderstorm stopped being a matter of luck based on the incomprehensible caprice of gods.

The modern-day spiritualist separates the "realms" of science and religion. In doing so, he limits himself to only hoping to understand the things he already does. This setup makes his faith -- his identity -- a player in hide-and-seek against the rest of civilization. It's not flattering to either. The only God I can imagine is one that set the world to function according to rules. I call it math.

I offered you questions to prompt insight into persuasion, peer pressure, short-term memory, image association, linguistic programming, and creativity. All fascinating psychological topics no one pretends we understand well. You turned your back on all of them. My assertion is that spiritualism has been doing this for thousands of years; only lately has it rescinded claim over all natural phenomena save human behavior.

Meanwhile, bold scientists are asking how the universe itself might have come to be. Do you believe we will never answer these questions, or are you content knowing your faith will someday reside in a gap no one ever supposed might exist?

Quote:
We cannot define it well enough to work with it and give consistent results, but at the same time I would be a fool to ignore the evidence I've seen.
What does it mean to "ignore" the evidence, as opposed to cooking up some flimsy ad-hoc probability argument to justify what you wanted to believe in the first place? Do you doubt a respectful awareness of the phenomena I suggested are involved will prove more fruitful than the supernatural cop-out?

If you want me to logically deconstruct your "math" six posts up I'll be glad to. What I was getting at with the Golden Tard quip is that you've assigned, after the fact, an extremely low probability to an event that happened. The probability says it didn't, unless 999999 other youth groups went home empty-handed. But I'm guessing they all (miraculously) had a similar faith-affirming experience. Statistics says your assigned probability must be wrong, or the game is rigged.

My primary gripe is that you're using probability to sell a "miracle" capable of defying it. Science and logic don't prove anything where you refuse to admit them.
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Last edited by möbiustrip; 10-29-2007 at 04:40 PM..
Old 10-29-2007, 04:34 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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ry_goody
 
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Originally Posted by Ray Charles View Post
First off, you need to make an effort to be concise and clear in your writing. It's difficult for me to even understand what you're trying to say, never mind what you mean.

I believe that understanding God is beyond our grasp because we've had essentially the same religious information for thousands of years, but can't seem to even agree on what God is.

I can't really help you understand God, but if you want to see His power then simply ask Him.

Let's skip the homework in the future, but I'll bite this time

What is the word |Void| attached to. -nothing's there
What is the word |Tao| attached to. -some crazy eastern thing
What is the word |Source| attached to. -creation, where stuff comes from
What is the word |God| attached to. -I actually didn't associate this with anything. I read this and just sat there for about a minute.

Do you want to think? -yes
Do you value thinking? -yes
Do you not value thinking? -no
Why? -Cuz thinking helps me learn stuff good.

Cite some examples of the glory of thinking and how they have aided humankind more so than Christ. If you do well in this assignment I will tell you what exactly this post mean.
Thinking is an action. I do it to help me understand something. There's no glory in it, it's just helpful. Nothing has aided humankind more than Christ.

Theres value in thinking and value in not thinking.
As what the word God presented to you

Go through the words and read them while, not thinking.

You can understand God when you don't go through the \same\ religious information, but rather, combine it all into One. All the pieces do fit together.

and I don't know how much value there is in -concise- and -clear-.
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Last edited by ry_goody; 10-30-2007 at 01:42 AM..
Old 10-30-2007, 01:35 AM ry_goody is offline  
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ry_goody
 
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Oh, and this is nice too. I think that's what makes you ...well you, and free_willy well ....free_willy. With your delusions and whatnot, it's a nice stepping stone to some obscure form of superiority. I think it's kind of delightful. It has something similar to the alphamales you see down at psych wards if you get to visit (not that you'd get to visit. You're more of a resident type person) ...you know, those guys that think they're chosen by god, or reborn greats of the past. It must be hard, everyday, for you.

How could being a reborn -great- be hard? Thats just stupid.
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Old 10-30-2007, 01:45 AM ry_goody is offline  
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Oh, and this is nice too. I think that's what makes you ...well you, and free_willy well ....free_willy. With your delusions and whatnot.

Whats this new long piece of drivel that hangs from your slack jaw?

I dont deal in delusions "sir" I deal in things like documents from the Library of congress that our free media is supposed to keep the people informed about, but wont because they no longer serve us:

betcha didnt know this

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:19 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Originally Posted by Free_Willy View Post
Whats this new long piece of drivel that hangs from your slack jaw?

I dont deal in delusions "sir" I deal in things like documents from the Library of congress that our free media is supposed to keep the people informed about, but wont because they no longer serve us:

betcha didnt know this

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

What is this socialist banter? Are you saying the free media should serve you, instead of exercising their own freedom of publishing and dishing out what the fuck ever they like?

I thought everyone else was socialist here but you. I'd say thats a pretty good example of you wanting to impose terror on people to serve the state. Fuck the constitution man

PS. Shit prisonplanet video, the moment I saw the URL I clicked stop. thanks gg come again
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Old 10-30-2007, 12:41 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
How could being a reborn -great- be hard? Thats just stupid.

I know you like to live in the fantasy world you imagine and all that other shit you've been typing here, but the hard part is obviously the part where you interact with normal people.
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Old 10-30-2007, 12:43 PM Straw Man is offline  
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ry_goody
 
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
I know you like to live in the fantasy world you imagine and all that other shit you've been typing here, but the hard part is obviously the part where you interact with normal people.

interacting with normal people has never been easier and more rewarding

Or do you mean cause of all those thoughts that creep into your head "are they thinking this about me, are they thinking that"? Well, I programmed such automated brain processes out of me long ago. Theres only me and contentedness.

the first time a typical US citizen stumbles on the basis of enlightenment it will come out as manic depression
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Old 10-30-2007, 10:55 PM ry_goody is offline  
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Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
interacting with normal people has never been easier and more rewarding

Or do you mean cause of all those thoughts that creep into your head "are they thinking this about me, are they thinking that"? Well, I programmed such automated brain processes out of me long ago. Theres only me and contentedness.

the first time a typical US citizen stumbles on the basis of enlightenment it will come out as manic depression

BWahhahhhahahhahah!
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Old 10-30-2007, 10:57 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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