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FSM
 
ps: if YHWH wants us to choose jesus, but he doesn't provide a shred of evidence for his existence or the divinity of jesus (and in fact, all we see in history, science, the bible, and logic is massive mountains of counterevidence to YHWH, jesus, the bible, and any 'god'), then how can he expect me to believe in jesus rather than in muhommad or ganesh- both of whom there is no evidence for? Actually, muhommad is pretty much historical fact, b/c of the political changes he caused- the guy really existed, almost all scholars would absolutely agree. Jesus, however, didn't cause any major changes that an invented idea (of a magical savior man, invented by paul) wouldn't have caused. Therefore, YHWH has utterly failed- I choose muhommad, b/c Allah at least was smart enough to send a messenger who made a definite mark on human history and undoubtedly existed as a real guy.
Old 09-11-2007, 09:44 PM FSM is offline  
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Something that really amazes me is the fact that a good friend of mine is one of the smartest people i've ever met, yet has next to no common sense

It's one of the most annoying things ever

Then he's not really smart.

If by 'smart' you mean 'he gets good grades', keep in mind academic ability (memorization skills, basically) don't mean shit. The rain man could memorize a phone book, but he was still a retard.

Real intelligence is logic, critical thinking, and reasoning skills. You can have academic smarts- and even scientific ability- but still be a senseless idiot. Just look at Francis Collins.
Old 09-11-2007, 09:50 PM FSM is offline  
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ps: if YHWH wants us to choose jesus, but he doesn't provide a shred of evidence for his existence or the divinity of jesus (and in fact, all we see in history, science, the bible, and logic is massive mountains of counterevidence to YHWH, jesus, the bible, and any 'god'), then how can he expect me to believe in jesus rather than in muhommad or ganesh- both of whom there is no evidence for? Actually, muhommad is pretty much historical fact, b/c of the political changes he caused- the guy really existed, almost all scholars would absolutely agree. Jesus, however, didn't cause any major changes that an invented idea (of a magical savior man, invented by paul) wouldn't have caused. Therefore, YHWH has utterly failed- I choose muhommad, b/c Allah at least was smart enough to send a messenger who made a definite mark on human history and undoubtedly existed as a real guy.

See, you start out with some okay ideas, but then you take retarded tangents like this.

Historical proof for or against a particular representative of a religion is far from the only factor that one should consider in choosing a religion.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:50 PM mathlete is offline  
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See, you start out with some okay ideas, but then you take retarded tangents like this.

Historical proof for or against a particular representative of a religion is far from the only factor that one should consider in choosing a religion.
For one, is it tax deductible, and two, what's the pussy situation.

But then there's Mormonism.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:17 AM möbiustrip is offline  
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I mean I understand God is probably really busy and doesn't have time to help out with things like the holocaust or whatever, but I would still expect him to do something a little more significant than give visions essentially about nothing besides whats in the town to some youth group in New Mexico when he actually does decide to do things.


God is a blizzard community manager?


NERF MUSLIMS!
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:05 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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God is a blizzard community manager?


NERF MUSLIMS!

You've obviously never been to a Relic game forum.

Nerf the nebelwerfer!
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:51 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:05 AM cromicus is offline  
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That is great.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:39 AM pyramid is offline  
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See, you start out with some okay ideas, but then you take retarded tangents like this.

Historical proof for or against a particular representative of a religion is far from the only factor that one should consider in choosing a religion.
I didn't actually mean I was becoming muslim- I was just making a point.

sheesh
Old 09-12-2007, 07:27 AM FSM is offline  
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Something that really amazes me is the fact that a good friend of mine is one of the smartest people i've ever met, yet has next to no common sense

It's one of the most annoying things ever


The two are causally linked.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:21 AM ry_goody is offline  
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ps: if YHWH wants us to choose jesus, but he doesn't provide a shred of evidence for his existence or the divinity of jesus (and in fact, all we see in history, science, the bible, and logic is massive mountains of counterevidence to YHWH, jesus, the bible, and any 'god'), then how can he expect me to believe in jesus rather than in muhommad or ganesh- both of whom there is no evidence for? Actually, muhommad is pretty much historical fact, b/c of the political changes he caused- the guy really existed, almost all scholars would absolutely agree. Jesus, however, didn't cause any major changes that an invented idea (of a magical savior man, invented by paul) wouldn't have caused. Therefore, YHWH has utterly failed- I choose muhommad, b/c Allah at least was smart enough to send a messenger who made a definite mark on human history and undoubtedly existed as a real guy.

Some of the newagians, the genuine followers of modern channelled messages believe that Jesus Christ presented in the Christian bible was the product of someone else's foul play to take a great man and construe his legacy into a method of mind control.

They say all of the highest prophets throughout human history had the same belief, same understanding and same concepts of spirituality. They all lump them into the label 'ascended masters' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master

There are people today who claim to channel messages from them... yes even from Jesus Christ.

No, don't believe it. But use it as another context to refine your understandings of the possibilities of YHWH, your still running around in traditional contexts of theology.
... Although there suppositions on the unified spiritual viewpoint of them all is quite interesting.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:34 AM ry_goody is offline  
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I personally think that this view of god and prayer cheapens it

What about the wife praying every night that her husband makes it home from Iraq only for him to get killed by an IED the next day? You have what you have because you and your family and the people around you worked for it or inherited it.

The same principle applies to the concept of 'miracles' in my mind. People praying to god not for some greater spiritual insight but essentially treating it as some kind of genie that will grant wishes if you're a nice enough person. You aren't more important than anyone else and if there is some omnipotent entity in the ether they don't give a shit about you.

I don't think this cheapens prayer. Anything that happens happens because God allows it to, or because God does it. Therefore, I thank God for the things that He allows me to have, and take a lesson from the bad experiences in my life.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:01 AM Ray Charles is offline  
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This is the lamest miracle I've ever heard of. God gave your church group visions about what they would find in town? Why would God do this? What's far more likely is that people in your group got a general idea of what they where looking for and immediately associated some roughly similar object/place/people with what they started off looking for.

I mean I understand God is probably really busy and doesn't have time to help out with things like the holocaust or whatever, but I would still expect him to do something a little more significant than give visions essentially about nothing besides whats in the town to some youth group in New Mexico when he actually does decide to do things.

What happens doesn't matter so much as the fact that it happens. A miracle without earth-shaking consequences is still a miracle. The only intended audience for this one was the people who witnessed it. For all I know, it made an impact on one of those people that has yet to be seen.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:05 AM Ray Charles is offline  
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I don't think this cheapens prayer. Anything that happens happens because God allows it to, or because God does it. Therefore, I thank God for the things that He allows me to have, and take a lesson from the bad experiences in my life.

I'm tempted to argue with you about this but I can't help but feel it would be about as fulfilling as banging my head against a brick wall.

There is no reason to the argument you made and perhaps its the fact that I live in a far more secular country than yourself and so am not exposed to particularly evangelical people very often, but I find you and your beliefs a little bit scary.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:07 AM Aragon-TypeR is offline  
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We can agree nothing so far is the least bit unusual. You went on a church field trip and your leaders asked you to think up a way to do good. The social context -- Christian youth group on an Indian reservation -- defines a small set of correct answers, missioning and community service being the obvious ones.

Magicians call this a "cold read."

Children, Mormons, and a church are not significant. They are ordinary.

Finding places in an unfamiliar town is not surprising. We all do that when we travel.

Finding your "picture" is not surprising. The instruction imagine an object or place to go suggests objects and places you can find. So school, church, cemetery, bus stop, basketball court, grocery store and pawn shop are all answers, while volcano is not. As for objects, I imagine tree, rock, dog and cactus would be on the list; I've never been out west so I can't picture the geography in better detail. That was the purpose of your sightseeing trip to the canyon.

How'd I do? Notice your group didn't pray to me.



The frame, arguably the purpose of your trip, is that your group expected spiritual feedback, maybe a sign from God, or a unique feeling. Having your expectations confirmed completes a psychological transaction -- Pentacostals go into a trance. We accurately recall those stories on the 6:00 news that agree with our politics. Patients on a sugar pill feel better. Fortune tellers tell single men they'll be successful and single women they'll find love. Mediums learn unique details about a dead relative and convey their love and advice. Hypnotists make ten people bark like dogs. Psychics describe imagery and you draw a particular object.

I hope you've taken something from my explanation. Please don't worship me or anything (you can send money, though). As a final point, can you really say with certainty everybody went with his first instinct? God showed me a cliff, but even though I've found the highest altitude I can, there aren't any cliffs...say, though, there's Chief Winnabuck's casino! And a cherry did cross my mind...hey, God must have wanted to send me to the slot machines all along! Now that's an awesome God, right there. May He send me a waitress.

Now, getting back to where we started -- you're willing to believe a man rose from the dead because of a free association game?

The question wasn't "imagine an object or place to go". It was "ask God what you should do today". The people got the idea to go canvassing on their own. In fact, several people did not go canvassing.

Second, like I said, the ordinary objects weren't seen more than once and there were some things that nobody had seen before. A few examples:

Someone didn't think that they should go find some Mormons. The Indians on this reservation all had small religious structures. I believe they were called Hogaans, but I'm not sure on that. In any case, they were small octagonal buildings 10-15 feet across with dirt floors and open doors facing east. This person saw a large, strange hogaan. When they found it, it was a two-story structure roughly 30 feet across with a door and white siding. That's not something that you'll come up with if you're looking for familiar objects. Before we got there, we had no idea that these things existed. Further, once we got there they were all identical. This was completely out of the ordinary.

Another person saw an average gray mailbox that you could find on any Midwestern street. This was tough to find because the entire week we were there, we saw only a single mailbox. This one "happened" to be it and we "happened" to find it right after someone thought that they should find a mailbox. The guy even got the color right. FYI, the town was spread out enough that they didn't have mail routes, everyone had a PO box at the post office.

It can get stranger if you want. Someone saw a certain shade of blue. When they recognized it later (it happened to be the color of a row of port-a-johns), they found lots more kids. Someone saw three oranges in the middle of the desert. Why they were there, I have no idea. Still, they were found (and were the only oranges we saw all week).

Basically I'm trying to demonstrate that people didn't just think up familiar locations to find.

People also didn't wait and say "hey, I think that's what I saw, yeah...". Everyone shared these images beforehand, so people weren't just pointing at random and claiming that they'd seen their vision. Nobody needed to fudge the truth.

I believe that I've answered your free association claims. These weren't commonplace items or places to go.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:28 AM Ray Charles is offline  
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