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Golf(e)
 
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Someone please help me out here v. Libya

Granted, i try not to pay attention to these things because they scare me and I feel I have no way to tell when Im being lied to or not. But I did just read this article, http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=627437 and now I find myself baffled beyond reconciliation. Someone please tell me if I have the situation down right

NATO countries begin bombing lybia on the grounds that a civil war is taking place there, and that the leader, Colonel Qadaffi, is attacking innocent civillians, so we are fighting to help them overthrow their dictator.
But just recently, more than a third of the entire population of Lybia is marching the capital, protesting NATO, saying in so many words, "he is not killing us, you are, we want our leader Qadaffi"
If thats true, NATOs attacks would be war crimes, no? Crimes against humanity. It's not legal. There are international laws about this sort of thing.

So if this information is now out in the open, how is nothing happening about it? How is this illegal activity not being confronted? Is nobody in america or the other NATO countries demanding justification for this?

Theres a video in the link i posted that shows a fuckton of people all protesting at the capital, chanting something like "People want Colonel Qadaffi"
So my question is... was there ever even civil war in Lybia? Wikipedia has a page saying so (lol).. and my mom seems to have the impression that Qadaffi is a horrible person and this has been known for a long time. But... over a hundred thousand people are chanting that they want him.

I really dont understand. At the end of the day I understand that this and all other wars are nothing more than modern tribal warfare. People are smart individually, but as a whole we are still primitive. That we can get to space but not help but murder eachother makes it clear that technology has advanced far faster than human mentality.

But I just dont understand how we can blatantly lie and break laws and no one is to be held accountable? We lied about the reason we declared war, this is now known, and yet the bombings continue? Is my take on the situation off? Someone please give me their view here.

From the article
Quote:
The entire premise of NATO bombing Libya... has been that Colonel Qaddafi is attacking the Libyan population.

First this was shown to be a lie when the Russian military, for the first time publicly displayed video footage from its military spy satellites which showed that no Libyan air force flights took place, nor any massacres, during the months that NATO had claimed as a reason for it launching the now more than 3 month long non-stop bombing of Libya.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:11 AM Golf(e) is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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you dont seem to understand that concept of a civil war. It means some of the country supports the leader, and some doesnt.
Old 07-07-2011, 11:15 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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Golf(e)
 
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Read the quote from the article. It says there were no lybian air force flights or massacres that took place during the months that NATO claimed it did. That means that NATO lied about the reason for war, then, wouldnt it?
Over one third of the population marching to say "he isnt killing us, you are, please stop bombing us NATO"

What does that add up to, then?
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:17 AM Golf(e) is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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thats because libya only had something like 12 jets, and almost all of them defected, supporting the protesters. You dont remember the news about the pilots attacking qaddafis palace? or landing the jets in friendly territory when asked to fire upon civilians?

"Over one third of the population marching to say "he isnt killing us, you are, please stop bombing us NATO"

Im sure the hutu's said that about the tutsi's too.
Old 07-07-2011, 11:23 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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acidfast7
 
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over the last 100 years, this is SOP everywhere outside of North America.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:25 AM acidfast7 is offline  
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Golf(e)
 
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So domon, what is your take on the situation, can you break it down for me? NATO is justified in this declaration of war?

What does "SOP" mean?
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:41 AM Golf(e) is offline  
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who started it?
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:50 AM w.t.cats is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golf(e) View Post
So domon, what is your take on the situation, can you break it down for me? NATO is justified in this declaration of war?

What does "SOP" mean?
its a civil war at its heart, the rebels are well armed. Not as well armed as qadaffi, but still not innocent helpless civilians.

But when qadaffi turned anti-aircraft guns on protesting crowds, who were violent, but not that big of a threat, idunno

The UN as opposed to the US was the right one to intervene i think. There is injustice occurring there, but its between two forces both capable of defending eachother, its not genocide.

That said, qadaffi is a nutcase who has been torturing and killing his people for half a century, ill be glad to see him gone.
Old 07-07-2011, 11:51 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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FairyTits
 
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LIBYA NOT LYBIA
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:53 AM FairyTits is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
That said, qadaffi is a nutcase who has been torturing and killing his people for half a century, ill be glad to see him gone.



he's a cock but ultimately been good for the country
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:55 AM FairyTits is offline  
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FairyTits
 
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the real reason people are determined to see him gone is that they are a wealthy country with plenty of oil and gold. gadaffi was going about making a new currency backed by gold, with the plan being not to trade in dollars any more. they would only have accepted gold for their oil. that's a problem for the energy hungry western countries whos currency is essentially worthless/not backed with anything, so these countries decided that killing him is the only option.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:16 PM FairyTits is offline  
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Phil Taylor
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someone please help me out here v. labia
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:49 PM Phil Taylor is offline  
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Vote McCain!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golf(e) View Post
So domon, what is your take on the situation, can you break it down for me? NATO is justified in this declaration of war?

What does "SOP" mean?

SOP = standard operating procedure
Old 07-07-2011, 03:05 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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Had this discussion in the other thread a bit (in EC), but thoughts:

All the sources on that march seem extremely sketchy (that site you linked to has a link to a story about all the gold in Fort Knox being stolen ). It's impossible to tell the size of a rally from a crappy video like that, so without better reporting, who really knows how many people showed up. Also Qaddafi is known for coercive use for force, and there are stories about people and their families being threatened if they didn't attend the rally.


As far as the setup for the revolution: some of his ministers even defected. If the whole thing was fake, why would people high up in the power structure flee?

Many eyewitnesses saw the massacres taking place, including quite a few British and Americans who have no obvious incentive to lie about it. Qaddafi has released all kinds of insane stories (the entire population was rioting because of LSD in the water from American spies) and it wouldn't surprise me a whole lot if these stories coming out now are counter-intelligence being pushed by pro-Qaddafi factions. Obviously that's wild speculation at this point.


Also, as far as the attacks by NATO being "illegal," illegal according to who, exactly? This is a UN sanctioned intervention. There's nobody else to say it's illegal. Unfortunately civilians do die in wars and maybe NATO's actions have done more harm than good, but that doesn't make it "illegal."
Old 07-07-2011, 04:17 PM Gibonius is offline  
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What we are doing in Libya is what should have done in Iraq.
Old 07-07-2011, 06:02 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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