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That German Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
not two gods. Holographic duplications of the same

And two entities not connected in any way are.......? Separate. Which rather removes the abrahamic god (among many others) from the equation.
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:33 PM That German Guy is offline  
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Originally Posted by red|dragon View Post
Then you're obviously just immature for your age haven't found your way yet. It's ok. Sometimes it takes people longer than others.

Again, hey guys it's cool and trendy to be agnostic or atheist, fucking tool

I went to church for nearly 20 years, have extensively read and studied the bible, and still ultimately came to atheism through logic and reason. Many people in my lab also happen to be atheists, and it has nothing to do with being cool or trendy.
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:34 PM mathlete is offline  
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CRasch
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:11 AM CRasch is offline  
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If you're trying to go the analogy road with the footprints, it's not a good way for the religious.

Let's assume these 'footprints' are miracles, at least I think that's what you're trying to imply here and it's the only "proof" I've ever heard a god believer come up with. So you're comparing something anybody can see - footprints, to something that has never been proved to happen - miracles(this includes taking credit for an event based on coincidence)

If you see the footprints form with your own eyes(see a miracle take place) and you point exactly where they were(when you do that it's very hard to miss unless it wasn't there in the first place!) and when anybody else takes a look at where you're pointing, nothing is there - you're delusional.

Let's say someone is miraculously healed. I saw it happen and tell you about it. You examine the person who was healed and say "I can't tell there was ever anything wrong with this person. How do I know you're not lying?"

The footprint is there, but you don't know whether it's real or a lie. You can see it, but you don't know for certain what you're seeing. You're rightfully skeptical, but I would be no less right in my assertion that they were healed.

Either your capacity for comprehension has dramatically fallen recently, or you're being deliberately dense in this conversation. So I'll break it down:

You want proof of my invisible, intangible dragon. I show you footprints I saw him make. You see the footprints, but not the process of them being made. You conclude that there is no way of verifying the footprints were made by any sort of dragon. We're both right...the dragon can be proven real to me but not to you with the same evidence.

And yes, that translates directly to miracles, or anything else that might prove God's existence.
Old 04-11-2008, 04:38 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
And two entities not connected in any way are.......? Separate. Which rather removes the abrahamic god (among many others) from the equation.

no man It's like shining a laser pointer through a split mirror. While yes the beam splits and produces two different dots, both dots are in actuality the same dot.

Hell, after the split mirror you might even route one dot through a filter to produce a circle, and another dot through a filter to make a square. But even then, the circle and square are both the same dot.

This is in fact the kind of universe we live in. Your not actually seeing objects, your not actually seeing physical reality. Your eyes are absorbing photons reflected off the energy condensed to what is collectively deemed 'physical'. Atoms do not construct your reality, atoms are not what you comprehend, it's all light and photons that have constructed your vision and comprehension of reality. And all light is merely a refraction of one bright infinite light placed in the center of your vision, perceived to be infinitely away. Through the psychic interplay of what is agreed upon 'real' in your circle of trusted monkeys, your brain then recognizes certain energetic plays as pertinent to the survival of your collective energy and will route that one infinite light, by a series of seemingly atomic refractions, to construct your vision and cause you to believe your existing in physical reality. If you forget the need for your body, the need for your self, the need for earth, the need for the universe, your brain will stop refracting the one light source through whatever concoction you have tied your brain up to believe reality to be. Then you will see it. Just plain white light, with a pleasantly loud buzzing sound. The one light source that illuminates your vision, not yet abstracted into the prismatic array of 'objects' you believe to be physical reality.

Which if you consider that absurd. For a moment think. All of the earth and this solar system is merely an abstracted alteration of the energy from a singular source, the sun. What I said is not absurd, it is in fact the simple truth of the matter agreed upon by every culture in existence, even atheists (or do one of you want to argue we will continue to exist without the sun? ). All I describe is how the brain carries around a psychically emulated concept of the sun in order to produce what you call 'vision'.

You get enough monkeys in a group collectively believing the single light source is a certain deitic form and there brains will quite literally take this light source and refract it through synapses of their brain to produce a true sight of jesus, Krisna or whatever deity. But it's all construct of the same thing. And while yes it is Jesus, Krisna, Muhamed all seperate, it isn't, as it is all constructs of the very essence of pure light, otherwise you would not see it, and light is singular source of all. Even if it contorts itself to deitic form, sight of the earth, or parallel dimensions, it's still all a construct from the same source.
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:00 AM ry_goody is offline  
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Ballz2TheWallz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
no man It's like shining a laser pointer through a split mirror. While yes the beam splits and produces two different dots, both dots are in actuality the same dot.

Hell, after the split mirror you might even route one dot through a filter to produce a circle, and another dot through a filter to make a square. But even then, the circle and square are both the same dot.

This is in fact the kind of universe we live in. Your not actually seeing objects, your not actually seeing physical reality. Your eyes are absorbing photons reflected off the energy condensed to what is collectively deemed 'physical'. Atoms do not construct your reality, atoms are not what you comprehend, it's all light and photons that have constructed your vision and comprehension of reality. And all light is merely a refraction of one bright infinite light placed in the center of your vision, perceived to be infinitely away. Through the psychic interplay of what is agreed upon 'real' in your circle of trusted monkeys, your brain then recognizes certain energetic plays as pertinent to the survival of your collective energy and will route that one infinite light, by a series of seemingly atomic refractions, to construct your vision and cause you to believe your existing in physical reality. If you forget the need for your body, the need for your self, the need for earth, the need for the universe, your brain will stop refracting the one light source through whatever concoction you have tied your brain up to believe reality to be. Then you will see it. Just plain white light, with a pleasantly loud buzzing sound. The one light source that illuminates your vision, not yet abstracted into the prismatic array of 'objects' you believe to be physical reality.

Which if you consider that absurd. For a moment think. All of the earth and this solar system is merely an abstracted alteration of the energy from a singular source, the sun. What I said is not absurd, it is in fact the simple truth of the matter agreed upon by every culture in existence, even atheists (or do one of you want to argue we will continue to exist without the sun? ). All I describe is how the brain carries around a psychically emulated concept of the sun in order to produce what you call 'vision'.

You get enough monkeys in a group collectively believing the single light source is a certain deitic form and there brains will quite literally take this light source and refract it through synapses of their brain to produce a true sight of jesus, Krisna or whatever deity. But it's all construct of the same thing. And while yes it is Jesus, Krisna, Muhamed all seperate, it isn't, as it is all constructs of the very essence of pure light, otherwise you would not see it, and light is singular source of all. Even if it contorts itself to deitic form, sight of the earth, or parallel dimensions, it's still all a construct from the same source.
Holy shit, are you God?
Old 04-11-2008, 05:38 AM Ballz2TheWallz is offline  
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If there wasn't such a large population of teenagers, college kids, and young immature adults like yourself who are agnostic or atheist, you wouldn't be either. You're lazy, so you just do whatever everyone else does. Pretty easy to do, if you're a fucking tool like yourself.

I'd call you retarded but that would be an insult to people with mental disabilities.

You honestly think people question the notion of an invisible sky god because it's popular? Perhaps it's just a lot easier to believe that it's all a crock of bull than it is to buy into the mass amount of fairy tale religion tries to feed.
Old 04-11-2008, 02:04 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Holy shit, are you God?

depends on how im feeling
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:17 PM ry_goody is offline  
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I'd call you retarded but that would be an insult to people with mental disabilities.

You honestly think people question the notion of an invisible sky god because it's popular? Perhaps it's just a lot easier to believe that it's all a crock of bull than it is to buy into the mass amount of fairy tale religion tries to feed.

I actually think so many people jumped on the atheist bandwagon because it's absolutely terrifying to ponder the idea that when you die, physical reality is just going to peel off your perception, along with your body, and your going to be in a new dimension with a whole bunch of new shit to get going on. Some seem to think people believe in an afterlife to have something to look forward to? The after life to me just seems terrifying and introduces a HUGE burden of responsibility.

I mean I guess I'm just in a sense agreeing with you, atheism did gain popularity because it's easier to believe. But I don't know, it seems you don't realize that yes it actually IS easier to believe atheist stuff, and more than easy, it's incredibly comforting to think existence ends when you die.
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Old 04-12-2008, 01:01 AM ry_goody is offline  
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Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
I actually think so many people jumped on the atheist bandwagon because it's absolutely terrifying to ponder the idea that when you die, physical reality is just going to peel off your perception, along with your body, and your going to be in a new dimension with a whole bunch of new shit to get going on. Some seem to think people believe in an afterlife to have something to look forward to? The after life to me just seems terrifying and introduces a HUGE burden of responsibility.
Yeah, because the thought of unexisting sure sounds much more tempting. You know, like completely NOT being
Quote:
I mean I guess I'm just in a sense agreeing with you, atheism did gain popularity because it's easier to believe. But I don't know, it seems you don't realize that yes it actually IS easier to believe atheist stuff, and more than easy, it's incredibly comforting to think existence ends when you die.
Fuck, why did I even bother
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Old 04-12-2008, 01:14 AM Straw Man is offline  
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I just think theres some things were not supposed to know, and if we did it would take all the mystery and fun out of life.

Its the people that use religion and thier "conviction" to justify all the evils and various methods to force something onto others that makes one hell of a good case for athiesm, and even then we trade one evil for another because while religion is used for force it also does provide at the same time a moral framework that goes completely unaddressed with athiesm.

Damned if we do and damned if we dont.
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Old 04-12-2008, 01:20 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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I just think theres some things were not supposed to know, and if we did it would take all the mystery and fun out of life.

Its the people that use religion and thier "conviction" to justify all the evils and various methods to force something onto others that makes one hell of a good case for athiesm, and even then we trade one evil for another because while religion is used for force it also does provide at the same time a moral framework that goes completely unaddressed with athiesm.

Damned if we do and damned if we dont.

I agree that atheism does not address morality since, you know... it's just not believing in a god, but what makes you think religion provides a framework for morality?

Mexico: 99% christian, homicide rate of ~14 per 100k

Japan: 75 to 80% atheist, homicide rate of less than 4 per 100k

There are many more examples of more godless countries being less violent than the ones filled with a high percentage of religious population, but I've posted it a thousand times and I'm lazy as hell. I know correlation does not equal causation and there are other factors like poverty(religion loves to feed off of the minds of the poor), but we can definitely conclude that being religious does not make you a moral person AND the trend looks to be - the less religious you are, the more civilized you tend to be.

I know the god-believers like to think they have a monopoly on morality, but the reality is much different. Even evolutionary psychology/biology is starting to see how and why altruism came about. Hint: it was long before religion was even thought of. It sounds pretty obvious to anybody who doesn't have god on the brain, but now we have more evidence.
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:41 AM SnakeIRye is offline  
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AncientMarinade
 
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I actually think so many people jumped on the atheist bandwagon because it's absolutely terrifying to ponder the idea that when you die, physical reality is just going to peel off your perception, along with your body, and your going to be in a new dimension with a whole bunch of new shit to get going on. Some seem to think people believe in an afterlife to have something to look forward to? The after life to me just seems terrifying and introduces a HUGE burden of responsibility.

I mean I guess I'm just in a sense agreeing with you, atheism did gain popularity because it's easier to believe. But I don't know, it seems you don't realize that yes it actually IS easier to believe atheist stuff, and more than easy, it's incredibly comforting to think existence ends when you die.

why the hell are you posting in here

you claim that atheism is "easy" to believe in, that "it caught on because it's easier to believe in"...
could you explain to me why it's easier to believe in?

(most) atheists: believes 100% there is no God, believes that there is no higher power governing things/ruling our lives/directing our lives/created us...basically we are merely small creatures populating 1/1^gazillion of the universe, and that when we die there is no reward and no heaven/hell

take a look at prayer or final rights or blessing a house. people do it because it makes them feel better, more at peace, more comfortable.

having a religion, if anything, is easier.
mind you: i'm not agreeing at all with your dumbfuck reasoning for why atheists are atheists...cause i am the "exception to your dumbfuck law", but i want to know why you think it's easier
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:11 PM AncientMarinade is offline  
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(most) atheists: believes 100% there is no God

I'm not so sure about that. I think it's kind of hard to figure out what percentage of self-proclaimed atheists are more agnostic and what percentage actually claim that there is no god (a belief equally as unverifiable as the claim that there is some kind of higher power).
Old 04-12-2008, 12:14 PM SemperFly is offline  
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AncientMarinade
 
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I'm not so sure about that. I think it's kind of hard to figure out what percentage of self-proclaimed atheists are more agnostic and what percentage actually claim that there is no god (a belief equally as unverifiable as the claim that there is some kind of higher power).

but then they would be agnostics...

but yeah, i know what you mean.
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:17 PM AncientMarinade is offline  
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