General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
kudos
I am a homofag with no friends and Halo owns my soul
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
Aren't you like 12?

Some how he understands history better than you so why does it matter?
Old 09-01-2008, 06:05 PM kudos is offline  
Reply With Quote
#136  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

Rang3find3r
sabercat tamer
 
Rang3find3r's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
Aren't you like 12?

sucks a LOT when a 12 year old posts a better argument than you do, doesn't it?
Old 09-02-2008, 10:48 AM Rang3find3r is offline  
Reply With Quote
#137  

:ninja:
My cooter sweats, and reeks like rotting sea vermon.
 
:ninja:'s Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rang3find3r View Post
sucks a LOT when a 12 year old posts a better argument than you do, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kudos View Post
Some how he understands history better than you so why does it matter?

I set myself up for that.

Still, you haven't provided a good rebuttal to my points.
__________________
Use Linux and BSD
Old 09-02-2008, 12:10 PM :ninja: is offline  
Reply With Quote
#138  

Rang3find3r
sabercat tamer
 
Rang3find3r's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
I set myself up for that.

Still, you haven't provided a good rebuttal to my points.

I've provided a lot of rebuttal in this thread, you just chose to ignore it/disagree with it. doesn't change history though, and doesn't change the fact that the correct decision was made given the circumstances and knowledge at the time.
Old 09-02-2008, 12:58 PM Rang3find3r is offline  
Reply With Quote
#139  

:ninja:
My cooter sweats, and reeks like rotting sea vermon.
 
:ninja:'s Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rang3find3r View Post
I've provided a lot of rebuttal in this thread, you just chose to ignore it/disagree with it. doesn't change history though, and doesn't change the fact that the correct decision was made given the circumstances and knowledge at the time.
Nope
__________________
Use Linux and BSD
Old 09-02-2008, 03:56 PM :ninja: is offline  
Reply With Quote
#140  

coolxboxgamer
 
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


While exagerated, that does give a semi accurate depiction of what types of things went on over there.
__________________
d67ca28ff460654694fe788f176c6640 [y yuo throw haet :( :(] porn may <3's yuo.
Old 09-02-2008, 04:06 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
#141  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
I thought your hero ron paul has a wrinkly old 80-year old viagra enhanced boner for this silly little thing called noninterventionism. Why don't you remember that the next time you speak in behalf of "american troops" and how they shouldn't be protecting the interests of others.
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 09-02-2008, 04:11 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#142  

:ninja:
My cooter sweats, and reeks like rotting sea vermon.
 
:ninja:'s Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolxboxgamer View Post
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


While exagerated, that does give a semi accurate depiction of what types of things went on over there.

And the relevance of this is...?
__________________
Use Linux and BSD
Old 09-02-2008, 04:58 PM :ninja: is offline  
Reply With Quote
#143  

coolxboxgamer
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
I thought your hero ron paul has a wrinkly old 80-year old viagra enhanced boner for this silly little thing called noninterventionism. Why don't you remember that the next time you speak in behalf of "american troops" and how they shouldn't be protecting the interests of others.

wtf WW2 and the current situation have no relation whatsover
__________________
d67ca28ff460654694fe788f176c6640 [y yuo throw haet :( :(] porn may <3's yuo.
Old 09-02-2008, 05:02 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
#144  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolxboxgamer View Post
wtf WW2 and the current situation have no relation whatsover


They do actually, when you start justifying bombing someone with some odd ass humanitarian reasons you read out of a highschool textbook.
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 09-03-2008, 03:43 AM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#145  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTRocketMan View Post
What you are saying here hurts your overall point. According to you, Jap government told them that when the Americans invaded, we would destroy their society. Whether true or not, the fact that the government manipulated their people so badly, most likely would have caused civilians to take up arms against American troops. I'm not saying the American people weren't lead the same way, but I'm also sure that if the Japanese invaded the American mainland, it would have been a massacre of both sides.




Most military targets at the time were mixed in with civilian targets, probably in an effort to discourage bombings by our overwhelming air force. I also doubt that the Japanese would have been so likely to surrender, if we had simply nuked a small military target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_...ice_of_targets

We didn't have a never ending supply of nukes. Each and every one would have had extreme strategic importance. They had to use them where they would make the biggest impact, and make the Japanese surrender. In hindsight, you can speculate about other targets. After 4 years of all out war with an enemy nation, and no end to that in sight with the invasion of Japan, I doubt any of us can put ourselves in our leaders' shoes.

Moreover, just as you critize us for making the conjecture that there would have been more deaths, you use conjecture to say that there would not have been such casualties with invasion (which given the history of military occupations, an assumption you simply cannot make). If you were Japanese and saw your family gunned down by American GI's, I doubt you'd care whether or not they were shot or vaporized. What has the greater moral justification?

And I really don't agree with your assessment that troop losses are somehow less morally significant than civ. losses. When did they stop being people, simply for putting on a uniform and defending their country? You cannot compare WW2 to current terrorism and you know it.

I was away from this thread for awhile, just wanted to say I appreciate such a thoughtful post. Didn't mean to come off to anti-American it just ticks me when people buy what the textbooks say without any further thought on the matter.
You obviously have thought it out, so props =)

I consider military losses to be morally different than civvie losses, this is true. What you said is a good point. However I cannot morally accept that it is equal to bomb a military base full of soldiers who signed up to put their lives on the line, or a shopping mall filled with families and kids and other people trying to go about their daily lives; or an elementary school for that matter.
I don't really see how you could have a problem with al'qaida(spelled it wrong I know) style terrorist attacks on civilian targets if you feel its morally neutral (ie akin to killing military personnel) to kill civilians in war still.

And I'm not saying that a ground assault/non nuclear assault on Japan would have yielded less losses for either side. Just that it may have, and since we didn't try alternatives to wiping 2 heavily populated cities off the map, we will never know. In other words I dont think that because it MAY have caused less death than the nukes that it is a free moral pass to using nuclear arms in place of conventional weapons.

Lastly I have a lot of sympathy for civilian casualties in war after seeing how the gov has manipulated the American people into the wars we are fighting now or the ones on the horizon, and that often in both sides of a war the gov propaganda is practically identical on both sides with some different words thrown in.
This is why I'm libertarian, centralized power sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blow-Hard View Post
They fucking deserved to be nuked for what they pulled against our troops, and against the people of China, Korea, and SE Asia. Let us not forget the Bataan death march, the forced labor camps, they treated everyone they conquered with brutality.

The Japs were evil savages in WWII, they were murdering assholes. They deserved what they got, and they probably deserved much more, but thankfully, we made our point to them, wiping out two of their cities with nukes and firebombing many of the others.

So the people in their homes and apartments, stores and malls, their kids in school, deserved to die because their government and military did morally reprehensible shit around the world?
I hear Gitmo and our other secret prisons aren't exactly a shining example of how to not treat people like dogshit, so was Bin Laden justified in killing 5k innocent us civilians because of what our gov/military does abroad? During vietnam we slaughtered whole villiages of innocent people because we thought they might be hiding weapons or VC in their midst; so if they smuggled a nuke into NYC and took it out they have moral justification?

The argument that it saved more lives than it cost is a lot better than that one

Last edited by Malakai; 09-05-2008 at 03:49 AM..
Old 09-05-2008, 03:17 AM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#146  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulChaser View Post
Please learn a few facts about your Civvie targets

The Second Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Also note that Mitsubishi Steel and Arms was based in Nagasaki, one of the largest suppliers in the war of ships and planes.

Fair enough, I acknowledge that if your correct there was military value to the targets. Doesn't change the fact that we killed a whole lot of innocent people to get to those targets.

I've never actually said I thought we were flat wrong or evil, just that our motivations for it are questionable and the way we portray it in our history classes is laughably one sided. Discussions like this should be taking place in school, not summing the entire world rocking events into a single paragraph or chapter of a history textbook describing it as completely morally justified end of discussion, complete with some pretty pictures of nuclear fireballs.
Considering americans trash the japanese for revising their history and not acknowledging the bad things they did when we do the same thing in many ways is extremely hypocritical.
Old 09-05-2008, 03:26 AM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#147  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
They do actually, when you start justifying bombing someone with some odd ass humanitarian reasons you read out of a highschool textbook.

__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 09-05-2008, 03:29 AM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#148  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
Ah, so it's just our sources that differ, and not you being retarded.

Willy: Communism and Fascism are radically different. Communism does tend to degenerate into something very much like fascism over time though.


There are a lot of political/economic scholars who disagree with you there =)
On a political scale of freedom<-------->authoritarianism, fascism and socialism are very very close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rang3find3r View Post
feel free to leave the US if you think you're so morally superior and don't support our decision to end a deadly war in the most efficient way possible. people like you thoroughly disgust me

So it's un-American to question the status quo or the decisions of your leaders? Damn that American Revolution was pretty unamerican, those stupid founders should never have questioned the policies of England and just left the country in the good hands of the King!

I respect people who have thought about the issue from both sides and still agree with the nukings, but people who throw hate for simply questioning, debating, and critically thinking disgust ME.

Last edited by Malakai; 09-05-2008 at 03:40 AM..
Old 09-05-2008, 03:34 AM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#149  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
And I'm not saying that a ground assault/non nuclear assault on Japan would have yielded less losses for either side. Just that it may have, and since we didn't try alternatives to wiping 2 heavily populated cities off the map, we will never know. In other words I dont think that because it MAY have caused less death than the nules that it is a free moral pass to using nuclear arms in place of conventional weapons.



actually we know beyond any reasonable doubt. While island hopping we found jap soldiers running their own population off of cliffs to deny us a base population to work with. While telling them it would be worse for them if the american canibals caught them and ate their babies. We had to actually rescue jap subjects from the japs.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 09-05-2008, 03:35 AM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#150  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.