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SoulChaser
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Nuking non-civilian targets might have accomplished the same thing. We didn't even give it a try first, we just went right for the civvies.

Please learn a few facts about your Civvie targets

The Second Army and Chugoku Regional Army were headquartered in Hiroshima, and the Army Marine Headquarters was located at Ujina port. The city also had large depots of military supplies, and was a key center for shipping.

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Also note that Mitsubishi Steel and Arms was based in Nagasaki, one of the largest suppliers in the war of ships and planes.
Old 08-14-2008, 01:27 PM SoulChaser is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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I think its absurd, and telling just how incredibly stupid mankind is that people an be friends with a people that nuked them... *twice* ... in any way shape or form just two generations later.

And to add more daftly stupid irony... the "nukers" are now allowing themselves to be devalued by better cars and electronics.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:48 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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#32  

Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Free_Willy View Post
I think its absurd, and telling just how incredibly stupid mankind is that people an be friends with a people that nuked them... *twice* ... in any way shape or form just two generations later.

If anything, that's an incredibly positive statement about humanity's capacity for forgiveness and acceptance of the past. Many of the world's problems are cause by a LACK of this quantity, and you find it to be a bad thing? Bizarre.
Old 08-14-2008, 02:00 PM Gibonius is offline  
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#33  

lgbr
 
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Originally Posted by Free_Willy View Post
I think its absurd, and telling just how incredibly stupid mankind is that people an be friends with a people that nuked them... *twice* ... in any way shape or form just two generations later.
So they should have resented us for all these years? How would that help Japan?

Really dude, shit happens, and you move on. You move on to better yourself.

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Originally Posted by Free_Willy View Post
And to add more daftly stupid irony... the "nukers" are now allowing themselves to be devalued by better cars and electronics.
Are you saying that we should nuke them again just so that we can keep our shitty cars and miss out on innovation that would have come out of Japan?

Tell me you're joking.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:17 PM lgbr is offline  
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#34  

Gibonius
 
Doubt he's coming back to defend that little gem.
Old 08-14-2008, 09:18 PM Gibonius is offline  
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That German Guy
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Frankly, the decision to drop The Bomb(s) on large cities was a war crime of the worst kind. Then again, killing lots of civilians was a popular thing in the second world war, wether you were German (V1/V2/The whole Jew type thing) British (Bombing residential districts in Germany), American(See British, plus the whole nuke thing) or Japanese (Unit 731 for example).
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:35 PM That German Guy is offline  
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#36  

g0rg0n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
Frankly, the decision to drop The Bomb(s) on large cities was a war crime of the worst kind. Then again, killing lots of civilians was a popular thing in the second world war, wether you were German (V1/V2/The whole Jew type thing) British (Bombing residential districts in Germany), American(See British, plus the whole nuke thing) or Japanese (Unit 731 for example).

you're a fucking idiot. there is no fucking comparison between the U.S., U.K., and even the Japs actions during the war and the undertakings of worthless fucking germany.

I think dropping the bombs was absolutely horrible, and absolutely necessary.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:24 AM g0rg0n is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
Frankly, the decision to drop The Bomb(s) on large cities was a war crime of the worst kind. Then again, killing lots of civilians was a popular thing in the second world war, wether you were German (V1/V2/The whole Jew type thing) British (Bombing residential districts in Germany), American(See British, plus the whole nuke thing) or Japanese (Unit 731 for example).

wrong. the v1 and v2 were not war crimes the nuke was not a war crime
treating captured enemies and civilians as slave labor and prostitutes was.

Its called technology. what is considered a war crime today was just a run of the mill bombing attack in WW2 because GASP they could not hit a 3 metere square target back then.
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:22 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#38  

That German Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g0rg0n View Post
you're a fucking idiot. there is no fucking comparison between the U.S., U.K., and even the Japs actions during the war and the undertakings of worthless fucking Nazi germany.

partially fixt. We don' roll like dat no more.

As for the comparison: All this was the deliberate murder of civilians, be it in an attempt to demoralize (Allies), A classical ethnic cleansing (Nazis) or a classical ethnic cleansing with the world's only non-tiny use of bioweapons, killing around 200k Chinese civilians. The Allies might have the excuse of preventing greater evil and oftentimes actually hitting military targets in the case of Germany, but The Bomb only hastened the Japanese defeat by a few months at most. And yes, I believe "evil" can be used to do "good".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
wrong. the v1 and v2 were not war crimes the nuke was not a war crime
treating captured enemies and civilians as slave labor and prostitutes was.

Its called technology. what is considered a war crime today was just a run of the mill bombing attack in WW2 because GASP they could not hit a 3 metere square target back then.

I really really hate quoting wikipedia, but;
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
"the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity"

The V campaigns were supposed to demoralize British civilians through destruction of their homes and the death of some of them. The weapons could not be targeted precisely enough to ensure a hit on a target smaller than a large airfield, even when using literally hundreds. Plus the Nazis actually adjusted the range when they thought they were not hitting London.

As for the bombing runs: The explicit purpose of quite a few of them was destruction of civilian property and civilian deaths, in the same attempt to demoralize as the V weapons.
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Last edited by That German Guy; 08-15-2008 at 01:31 AM..
Old 08-15-2008, 01:26 AM That German Guy is offline  
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TheMorlock
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I really hate morons who think that modern munitions with pin point accuracy means that everything else used before modern times is war crime material.

YOu bein bitchslapped mofo
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:08 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#40  

That German Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
I really hate morons who think that modern munitions with pin point accuracy means that everything else used before modern times is war crime material.

YOu bein bitchslapped mofo

When the orders say "Bomb residential area at XYZ" the accuracy is irrelevant.

I am NOT saying that all bombing runs were performed under such orders, or even the majority of them, but a non-trivial amount were. See the firebombing of Dresden for example.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:13 AM That German Guy is offline  
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#41  

TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
When the orders say "Bomb residential area at XYZ" the accuracy is irrelevant.

I am NOT saying that all bombing runs were performed under such orders, or even the majority of them, but a non-trivial amount were. See the firebombing of Dresden for example.

Dont be a free willy. they could barely hit the fukcing island with the buzz bombs and the V2 was not a moon rocket guidence system either. Maybe you should look at the actual technology and not the political . Mmkay?

Suck it up or STFU
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:17 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#42  

That German Guy
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I know the accuracy of these devices, while being good for their time, is rather shit. CEP for the V2 was around a hundred yards in optimal conditions over short ranges, while the V1 usually impacted in a broad area about 700 yards wide and two miles long. In other words, the V2 could repeatedly hit the same city, and the V1 was more of a weapon for attacking a whole county.

With freefall bombs delivered from a level flight, the accuracy depended on height and speed, and was usually in the area of a city block or two on a good day. This, and the fact that one can correct for mistakes since you could actually see the impact before your string of fire ended, at the very least made it possible to not drop the entire load of multiple attack waves into non-military areas.

As for the free willy part... I take personal offense at this comparison.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:25 AM That German Guy is offline  
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MrAdidaKing
 
I neither agree nor disagree with the use of atomic bombs. Though I would have supported the development and use of the neutron bomb.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:54 AM MrAdidaKing is offline  
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#44  

TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That German Guy View Post
I know the accuracy of these devices, while being good for their time, is rather shit. CEP for the V2 was around a hundred yards in optimal conditions over short ranges, while the V1 usually impacted in a broad area about 700 yards wide and two miles long. In other words, the V2 could repeatedly hit the same city, and the V1 was more of a weapon for attacking a whole county.

With freefall bombs delivered from a level flight, the accuracy depended on height and speed, and was usually in the area of a city block or two on a good day. This, and the fact that one can correct for mistakes since you could actually see the impact before your string of fire ended, at the very least made it possible to not drop the entire load of multiple attack waves into non-military areas.

As for the free willy part... I take personal offense at this comparison.
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:30 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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