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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
That's something the eco-nazis won't touch because..well, you know that would mean agreeing with their so-called opponents. Also, there are no fortunes to be made telling people to stop breeding like rabbits..

edit- maybe if there was some big grant money involved we could get scientists to tackle the fucking without birth control problem.

Far from it, there are quite a few loudly outspoken advocates for population control among the "green community" including everyone's favorite Al Gore. He got taken to town by the conservative goon squad for making vague suggestions about population control just a few months ago.
Old 09-22-2011, 03:09 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Is the global community of scientists a "special interest group?"

is it when they have to resort to lying, propaganda, and outright gestapo tactics in order to suppress the other global community of scientists that question their motives, methodology, and ethics....
Old 09-22-2011, 04:03 PM topcat989 is offline  
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is it when they have to resort to lying, propaganda, and outright gestapo tactics in order to suppress the other global community of scientists that question their motives, methodology, and ethics....

This post is just so, so sad, I almost find it offensive. I'd be willing to be large sums of cash in Vegas that you don't know what you are talking about. Have you even read a paper from a peer reviewed journal on ANY scientific matter, much less climate science? Have you ever met a climate scientist? Are you friends with any?

I work with climate scientists, and they don't work the way you describe. Last spring we had a number of scientists working in this field come to our campus and give lectures on current topics in climate science. They were skeptics and non-skeptics alike, and we all got to have it out in a public forum. And yes, the lectures were open to the public, even the skeptics' lectures. Every one of the researchers and experimentalists here that publishes anything is required to leave their results, as well as methodologies, open to judgement and scrutiny by the entire scientific community prior to publication. That's how the peer review system works, but you not being a practicing scientist, I wouldn't expect you to know any of that.

Yep, the way my friends and coworkers do things really sounds like gestapo tactics to me, it totally sounds like they are suppressing the views of people that don't agree with them .
Old 09-22-2011, 04:26 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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your right, we should never question what governments or special interest groups tell us.

What has that got to do with anything?


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What is this I don't even

The US produces something like 200 times more carbon emissions per capita than China. They have a hell of a lot of people, but few enough of them have anything approaching the Western standard of living. Which, ironically, is a good enough reason to push for alternative forms of energy now and not wait. China and India are going to continue to use more and more oil and coal, and it'll get real expensive real fast. If we're not ready with a viable alternative, we're all in trouble.

China uses coal for about 70% of their energy needs, which is pathetic. For us, this is oil. Which I guess is also kind of pathetic in the long run. China now is also the #1 in the world for photovoltaic solar cells and are currently looking to skip oil as much as they can and go straight to solar. They are lining their roads with these things for free light and so forth.

Both countries are guilty of shitting where we sleep, but we will find a way. If not photovoltaic then thermo solar, and molten salt as overnight energy storage....

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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Far from it, there are quite a few loudly outspoken advocates for population control among the "green community" including everyone's favorite Al Gore. He got taken to town by the conservative goon squad for making vague suggestions about population control just a few months ago.

best estimates put 13 billion as the magic number before we have to do serious cutbacks in this world. This is projected within a decade of now. I totally support population control.

I'm not saying you oppose it but I dare you to come up with at least one negative thing about people responsibly raising kids within their financial limits. I would push for something like a limit of two kids per family, with potential for more if you can prove that you have the time and finances to take care of more.

This will lower crime, there will be less traffic, less unemployment, etc etc etc
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:40 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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China uses coal for about 70% of their energy needs, which is pathetic. For us, this is oil. Which I guess is also kind of pathetic in the long run. China now is also the #1 in the world for photovoltaic solar cells and are currently looking to skip oil as much as they can and go straight to solar. They are lining their roads with these things for free light and so forth.

Both countries are guilty of shitting where we sleep, but we will find a way. If not photovoltaic then thermo solar, and molten salt as overnight energy storage....
China is also working on a bunch of nuclear plants, which is great. I'm not sure I trust their safety control though, given their recent general track record.

A pretty reasonable path for the US would be: utilizing natural gas much more heavily (lower carbon footprint than coal or oil), fixing our nuclear regulation and building some more plants, building wind and solar where optimal, then transitioning to other forms of energy as they develop.

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best estimates put 13 billion as the magic number before we have to do serious cutbacks in this world. This is projected within a decade of now. I totally support population control.
13 billion in a decade? That seems fast.
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I'm not saying you oppose it but I dare you to come up with at least one negative thing about people responsibly raising kids within their financial limits. I would push for something like a limit of two kids per family, with potential for more if you can prove that you have the time and finances to take care of more.

This will lower crime, there will be less traffic, less unemployment, etc etc etc
The problem is that First World countries aren't really the problem for population (resources, yes, but less so population growth). We could institute population control here and it would make almost no difference globally. We can't really control the Third World countries that are driving population growth, aside from trying to guide their policy through aid.

The big problem with population control is simply the civil liberty consequences. Honestly it's not really even necessary, in China the population largely enforces the child limitations themselves, people are just embarrassed to have a bunch of kids due to cultural pressure. They also want to spend $$$ on themselves.
Old 09-22-2011, 09:43 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
This post is just so, so sad, I almost find it offensive. I'd be willing to be large sums of cash in Vegas that you don't know what you are talking about. Have you even read a paper from a peer reviewed journal on ANY scientific matter, much less climate science? Have you ever met a climate scientist? Are you friends with any?

I work with climate scientists, and they don't work the way you describe. Last spring we had a number of scientists working in this field come to our campus and give lectures on current topics in climate science. They were skeptics and non-skeptics alike, and we all got to have it out in a public forum. And yes, the lectures were open to the public, even the skeptics' lectures. Every one of the researchers and experimentalists here that publishes anything is required to leave their results, as well as methodologies, open to judgement and scrutiny by the entire scientific community prior to publication. That's how the peer review system works, but you not being a practicing scientist, I wouldn't expect you to know any of that.

Yep, the way my friends and coworkers do things really sounds like gestapo tactics to me, it totally sounds like they are suppressing the views of people that don't agree with them .


Well actually in pro AGW science the way is works is you put up a paper and it gets killed in peer review and you kite a new paper that uses the first paper as if it had passed peer review. Then you call the person who killed the original paper in the peer review process a blogger when he exposes the scheme.


rinse and repeat.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:34 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Most of the times a group of scientists can barely agree on where to eat lunch. But here, we've got a worldwide conspiracy controlling every major journal for at least the last 40 years. Very impressive work, really.
Old 09-23-2011, 12:16 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Most of the times a group of scientists can barely agree on where to eat lunch. But here, we've got a worldwide conspiracy controllinghow purple my pope hat is. Very impressive work, really.

Yup
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:20 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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fuck global warming - it's pretty much well-known our planet goes through sustained ice ages every 80k-90k years w/ deep freezes shocking the planet about 10k-15k years after


s
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:18 AM BlisterDick is offline  
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fuck global warming - it's pretty much well-known our planet goes through sustained ice ages every 80k-90k years w/ deep freezes shocking the planet about 10k-15k years after


s

This entire thread is about AGW warmists trying to treat each accidental disproof by various branches of physics and chemistry that are not even addressing the issue except by existing as if they were only one isolated island that happens to show AGW as advocacy science instead of the avalanche it is.

They depend on people forgetting the last two dozen examples.
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:28 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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fuck global warming - it's pretty much well-known our planet goes through sustained ice ages every 80k-90k years w/ deep freezes shocking the planet about 10k-15k years after


s

you mean the entire global climate underwent a drastic and lasting change? several times?


interesting.
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:32 AM pyramid is offline  
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you mean the entire global climate underwent a drastic and lasting change? several times?


interesting.

inorite?
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:03 AM BlisterDick is offline  
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13 billion in a decade? That seems fast.

We could institute population control here and it would make almost no difference globally.


The big problem with population control is simply the civil liberty consequences.


people are just embarrassed to have a bunch of kids due to cultural pressure. They also want to spend $$$ on themselves.

-Coming up from 6 billion it's not hard to see personally, considering our population grows exponentially. We're at the steep part

-Controlling smog for example, started in CA out of necessity and spread all over the country. We can't control all laws everywhere but we can set a standard that others will follow. Ie, standing up for what's right even if you stand alone.

-100% true; we can tell people not to but if they have the 3rd illegal kid: what do you do? kill it? Fine them money and let them keep it? No easy way to enforce it. I don't really know what they do in China.

-That may be the best way to combat this. Public education, changing society norms... Make people feel guilty for having more kids than they can support. Draw these lines and connect the dots. For one thing we can stop giving $450/mo of federal money for every child you have, which will at least discourage ghetto people from farm-raising kids to collect these subsidies.
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:28 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Most of the times a group of scientists can barely agree on where to eat lunch. But here, we've got a worldwide conspiracy controlling every major journal for at least the last 40 years. Very impressive work, really.

I agree with this.
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Old 09-23-2011, 02:30 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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