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Nano
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R@$T@M@N
Communism in name only, actually. In fact, there has never been a government on Earth that has followed the teachings of Karl Marx by the letter. Russia was a totalitarian dictatorship. North Korea and Cuba are also totalitarian dictatorships. China used to be like Russia, but the country's is now just a very socialist government, and is slowly turning into a stricter form of democracy.

Agreed, really.


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Are you sure? The events that occured after World War II, such as the violation of the Yalta confrence and the attempt to sever ties between Berlin and the West, clearly showed that Stalin had plans to expand the USSR at least into Germany. He was a megalomaniac in the same vein as Hitler.
I'd say he was probably worse than hitler.
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:05 AM Nano is offline  
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Nuke the liberals.
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:57 PM theNoid is offline  
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Nuke the liberals.

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Old 05-06-2005, 10:56 PM Nano is offline  
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Carl Rove
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I have thought of another way to look at this issue: Did the men who made the choice to use atomic weapons have the right to make that decision at all?

Many of the most prominent scientists who worked on the Manhatten project were opposed to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their work was simply taken from them, and the US government went ahead with the action regardless of their wishes.

I would argue that the same mental qualities which allowed these men to develop the atomic bomb in such a short period of time also gvae them the wisdom to not want it used against civilian targets. The men who used the bomb had no such qualities.

I'm thinking particulally of Leo Szilard, who worked on the Manhatten project purely because he believed the US government was the only government that wouldn't use the bomb in anger, and that the mere threat of its use could force Germany and Japan to surrender. Sadly, like many brilliant men, he was hopelessly naive when it came to politics.
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:55 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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2slow
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Taken from them? We did not point a gun to their heads and tell them to work, They developed it on their own accord and new full well what it would be used for. Although the manhatten project did have many smart people, it was not the work of a handful of people. The Manhatten project was a huge undertaking, involving thousands upon thousands of people whether they knew it or not. Like every military project, it would be up to the commander in cheif whether it is used or not, end of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Many of the most prominent scientists who worked on the Manhatten project were opposed to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their work was simply taken from them, and the US government went ahead with the action regardless of their wishes.

I would argue that the same mental qualities which allowed these men to develop the atomic bomb in such a short period of time also gvae them the wisdom to not want it used against civilian targets. The men who used the bomb had no such qualities.

I'm thinking particulally of Leo Szilard, who worked on the Manhatten project purely because he believed the US government was the only government that wouldn't use the bomb in anger, and that the mere threat of its use could force Germany and Japan to surrender. Sadly, like many brilliant men, he was hopelessly naive when it came to politics.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:10 AM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
Taken from them? We did not point a gun to their heads and tell them to work, They developed it on their own accord and new full well what it would be used for. Although the manhatten project did have many smart people, it was not the work of a handful of people. The Manhatten project was a huge undertaking, involving thousands upon thousands of people whether they knew it or not. Like every military project, it would be up to the commander in cheif whether it is used or not, end of story.

Thats the way it worked, yes, but that doesn't automatically make it right.

The scientists involved were not told it was going to be used against civilians. Yes, they were naive for believing it wouldn't, but that isn't their fault. The US government exploited their intellect and then once the weapon was developed completely ignored their opinions.

No, the manhattan project wasn't the work for a handful of scientists, but there were a few prominent ones without whom it would not have been completed on time if at all.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:14 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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2slow
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It doesnt matter. It was not their weapon. Unless they personally funded it, built it, built the cyclotrons to harvest the uranium, paid to employ the thousands of people, sure, you might have an argument. But thats not the case. The bomb was built by the United States government. As far as the decision is concerned the scientists are just another few employees on the governmnet payroll. They are hired to engineer, not to weigh lives. It may sound shitty but the United States government had every right to make the decision based on whatever criterea it felt was necessary, with or without the input of the scientists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Thats the way it worked, yes, but that doesn't automatically make it right.

The scientists involved were not told it was going to be used against civilians. Yes, they were naive for believing it wouldn't, but that isn't their fault. The US government exploited their intellect and then once the weapon was developed completely ignored their opinions.

No, the manhattan project wasn't the work for a handful of scientists, but there were a few prominent ones without whom it would not have been completed on time if at all.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:19 AM 2slow is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
I have thought of another way to look at this issue: Did the men who made the choice to use atomic weapons have the right to make that decision at all?

Many of the most prominent scientists who worked on the Manhatten project were opposed to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their work was simply taken from them, and the US government went ahead with the action regardless of their wishes.

I would argue that the same mental qualities which allowed these men to develop the atomic bomb in such a short period of time also gvae them the wisdom to not want it used against civilian targets. The men who used the bomb had no such qualities.

I'm thinking particulally of Leo Szilard, who worked on the Manhatten project purely because he believed the US government was the only government that wouldn't use the bomb in anger, and that the mere threat of its use could force Germany and Japan to surrender. Sadly, like many brilliant men, he was hopelessly naive when it came to politics.
You seem to forget that at that time nobody really knew what the effects of a atomic weapon would be.....you can test drugs on thousands of rats for 20 years but until you actually release it to the public you won't know the actual effectiveness or lack thereof. Leo was right in that the mere threat should have been enough since Japan and Germany knew as much or more about the possible effects than the US but sadly sometimes it takes a demonstration to fully convince. As I stated in my first post....I think atomic/nuclear weapons should never be used again but it was inevitable for someone to be first...and I am glad it was the US.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:22 AM joemama is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
It doesnt matter. It was not their weapon. Unless they personally funded it, built it, built the cyclotrons to harvest the uranium, paid to employ the thousands of people, sure, you might have an argument. But thats not the case. The bomb was built by the United States government. As far as the decision is concerned the scientists are just another few employees on the governmnet payroll. They are hired to engineer, not to weigh lives. It may sound shitty but the United States government had every right to make the decision based on whatever criterea it felt was necessary, with or without the input of the scientists.

Everything comes down to money with you cunts doesn't it?

Sure, the materials used were the property of the US, but the ideas used ought to have been the property of the scientists. They were very naive to give up their intellectual property rights -and most of them did so on the assumption that the US (a country which not long before the second world war had been a vocal opponent of the bombing of civilians) would not use it in the way it was used.

You are arguing law, I am arguing right and wrong. You are truly a moron if you can't tell the difference.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:23 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
You seem to forget that at that time nobody really knew what the effects of a atomic weapon would be.....you can test drugs on thousands of rats for 20 years but until you actually release it to the public you won't know the actual effectiveness or lack thereof. Leo was right in that the mere threat should have been enough since Japan and Germany knew as much or more about the possible effects than the US but sadly sometimes it takes a demonstration to fully convince. As I stated in my first post....I think atomic/nuclear weapons should never be used again but it was inevitable for someone to be first...and I am glad it was the US.

For the record, I too am glad that Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany or the USSR didn't get there first (especially Nazi Germany, as my grandparents lived in a major industrial centre and I wouldn't exist if they had).

However, the US could've demonstrated the atomic bomb without killing thousands of civilians. It could've been used tactically against the Japanese Navy maybe, or detonated in an uninhabited part of Japanese territory, so they could see the effect first hand.

At the very least, they could've let people know about the Trinity test. If the intent was to make Japan back down peacefully they would not have kept that a secret until after Hiroshima.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:26 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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2slow
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No. Should the government have called up higgens and asked if we should use his boats in D-Day? Should we call general motors and see if we can use their automobiles in the war? No, we shouldnt, they authorized it by virtue of the fact that they sold to the goverment or actively developed for them. The same is true with the Manhatten project scientists. If they didn't want to risk it being used on someone they didn't want it to, they shouldn't have accepted the job and they shouldn't have developed it period. They took the risk, just because the outcome was not what they wanted does not make it any less right in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Everything comes down to money with you cunts doesn't it?

Sure, the materials used were the property of the US, but the ideas used ought to have been the property of the scientists. They were very naive to give up their intellectual property rights -and most of them did so on the assumption that the US (a country which not long before the second world war had been a vocal opponent of the bombing of civilians) would not use it in the way it was used.

You are arguing law, I am arguing right and wrong. You are truly a moron if you can't tell the difference.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:27 AM 2slow is offline  
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:28 AM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
No. Should the government have called up higgens and asked if we should use his boats in D-Day? Should we call general motors and see if we can use their automobiles in the war? No, we shouldnt, they authorized it by virtue of the fact that they sold to the goverment or actively developed for them. The same is true with the Manhatten project scientists. If they didn't want to risk it being used on someone they didn't want it to, they shouldn't have developed it period. They took the risk, just because the outcome was not what they wanted does not make it any less right in the grand scheme of things.

As I keep pointing out to you, THE SCIENTISTS INVOLVED WERE NOT TOLD WHAT THE BOMB WOULD BE USED FOR. The people who used the bomb were not capable of creating the bomb, so they tricked people who were capable of creating it into doing so.

The scientists were simply naive. The government was dishonest, and lied in order to kill thousands.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:29 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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#253  

2slow
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They built a fucking bomb, they knew exactly what it would be for. What they didn't know was if or where. Either way, TOO BAD! We didn't hire them to decide where it would be used, they were hired to build the damn thing.

We don't tell our privates where they are going the next day half the time. your argument is worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
As I keep pointing out to you, THE SCIENTISTS INVOLVED WERE NOT TOLD WHAT THE BOMB WOULD BE USED FOR. The people who used the bomb were not capable of creating the bomb, so they tricked people who were capable of creating it into doing so.

The scientists were simply naive. The government was dishonest, and lied in order to kill thousands.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:31 AM 2slow is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
They built a fucking bomb, they knew exactly what it would be for. Either way, TOO BAD! We didn't hire them the decide where it would be used, they were hired to build the damn thing.

Wrong, fuckface. As I have been trying to get through to you - THEY DIDN'T. After the two bombs were dropped on Japan, the bomb has been exclusively used for deterrance, which is what those scientists wanted.

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We don't tell our privates where they are going the next day half the time. your argument is worthless.
No, my argument is being ignored. Try actually reading what I am posting.
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Old 05-09-2005, 06:33 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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