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The-Raven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamore View Post
For some of us tax increases of 10-15% would be paying out the ass, I pay a lot less than 10% for my income for my insurance. If you failed to prep for life, and don’t have a job that provides you with insurance, or your wife/husband does not provide it for you, why should I have to support you? And more importantly why is it the government’s responsibility to support you? (Note I am using the universal you, not the personal you as in The Raven, but you as in anyone.) If you do have a job that offers it, and you made the choice to not get it, so that you can have another $225 a month, then you should go in to debt to pay for your treatment.

You incorrectly assume that I don't have insurance - copays still exist, and are often times still outrageous.

And you don't have to support me - the idea is that we'd all support each other... You know, helping out your fellow man - like we all claim to do, but never actually do.
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:40 AM The-Raven is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Raven View Post
You incorrectly assume that I don't have insurance - copays still exist, and are often times still outrageous.

And you don't have to support me - the idea is that we'd all support each other... You know, helping out your fellow man - like we all claim to do, but never actually do.

so when you pay your taxes before april 15th, you feel like you're helping out your fellow human beings?
Old 12-24-2007, 11:49 AM Allnighte is offline  
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Originally Posted by dagamore View Post
While you are correct that some people would make that argument, but it ignores thousands of years of precedent that the Government, normally local for minor roads, and normally federal (as in Country wide government, be it a Prince, King, Queen, or elected leaders) that provided for Massive interconnecting roads. And there upkeep normally by tolls or another form of usage fees or taxes. And more often than not, at least here in the US, when the government gets involved in business it is a bad thing. Now I am not advocating removal of all regulation, but some of them do need to go, such as the limitation that states that you cannot have any new power generating plants, but the power needs have increased massively in CA, wonder if that might cause power problems, or if some of the power issues in CA were caused by the local government, state wide, regulating the price that they could buy out of state power at, but that ignores basic price vs. demand principles, and that leads to shortages.

And you cannot assume that you are drawing the lines in the right place either, Hopefully when I check on this in the am tomorrow, that you are willing to talk about the issue, it would also be nice if you could drop the socialist rhetoric I am seeing in your post. To take from all for the common good is never a good thing. The miracle of large numbers does not work if you involve the government in to it. The just allow too much waste in to everything.


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Old 12-24-2007, 12:02 PM rizla is offline  
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The-Raven
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Originally Posted by Allnighte View Post
so when you pay your taxes before april 15th, you feel like you're helping out your fellow human beings?

if it was going towards healthcare or something a little more noble, yes...

I really don't get too bent out of shape about taxes
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Old 12-24-2007, 12:12 PM The-Raven is offline  
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deltabourne
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Originally Posted by The-Raven View Post
I would gladly pay another 10-15% in taxes if I knew that I could go to the doctor if I needed and not pay out the ass for it... or have some xrays taken and be thrown into debt.

Our current system is retarded as shit and only serves to show what America stands for - Monetary Greed. Which is why the system will never change, you have people that will lose millions if the government were to step in and actually do something - and you have assholes like those that have posted above that don't want to pay for *your* problem. Like I said, I would very gladly give up an extra portion of my pay so that I, my family - and yes, even you - could go to the hospital when your arm is hanging on by a single bloody tendon and NOT have to worry about how much of it insurance is going to cover, if any.
Wouldn't you rather pay 30% less in taxes and then pay for your own health care? Even if you make $50k/year it shouldn't cost much more than 10% of your income to get private insurance.

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Originally Posted by elysian View Post
i find it strange that americans who have never experienced universal healthcare say it sucks. meanwhile those who have universal healthcare in other countries are scratching their heads wondering how anyone can argue against universal healthcare with all the evidence of working universal healthcare systems all over the world that says otherwise.
It's not so much that it sucks as much as there are probably better options out there, especially for America. Even universal healthcare has drawbacks, don't pretend like it's a perfect system. I don't know why people can't accept that there is more than one way to do something effectively. There is no "correct" solution.
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Last edited by deltabourne; 12-24-2007 at 02:27 PM..
Old 12-24-2007, 02:24 PM deltabourne is offline  
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-Asserting people have no right to health care is a ridiculous stance that belongs in the 19th century, you have no justification to back up this claim either


for you to exercise your "right" requires that the government forces others to fund/perform it at gunpoint. you are basically a thief who insists that he has a right to steal.
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Old 12-24-2007, 02:48 PM mike27 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamore View Post
And you cannot assume that you are drawing the lines in the right place either, Hopefully when I check on this in the am tomorrow, that you are willing to talk about the issue, it would also be nice if you could drop the socialist rhetoric I am seeing in your post. To take from all for the common good is never a good thing. The miracle of large numbers does not work if you involve the government in to it. The just allow too much waste in to everything.

I posted no socialist rhetoric; you are just assuming you already know my opinions when I have posted almost none. And I have no interest in debating people like yourself actually anyway.
Old 12-24-2007, 02:56 PM mathlete is offline  
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Originally Posted by mike27 View Post


for you to exercise your "right" requires that the government forces others to fund/perform it at gunpoint. you are basically a thief who insists that he has a right to steal.

still waiting for you to mature past this ridiculous ayn rand phase guess ill be waiting a long time
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:01 PM rizla is offline  
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The-Raven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post
Wouldn't you rather pay 30% less in taxes and then pay for your own health care? Even if you make $50k/year it shouldn't cost much more than 10% of your income to get private insurance.

Insurance does not cover everything, and often times weasles it's way out of paying. Be thankful that you don't have thousands in medical bills - others aren't so lucky. Even with insurance, the big stuff still costs a lot of money. I pay for insurance so that I don't have to pay medical bills - not so that I only have to pay 20-40% of my bill. Insurance did not cover my ambulance ride... the one time I actually needed emergency care - I guess the insurance company assumed I should just drive myself to the hospital. Not to mention that going to the emergency room is a totally different copay than going to my regular doctor... because my regular doctor is available at 2am.

I would much rather pay a bit more taxes to know that there is no medical bill after insurance, there wouldn't be a copay, and that you would be afforded that same luxury.

If I were a doctor I wouldn't want to work in a system where people were afraid to come to me when they genuinely need help because they can't pay the copays... that seems rather counter intuitive to 'helping the sick'
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:12 PM The-Raven is offline  
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still waiting for you to mature past this ridiculous ayn rand phase guess ill be waiting a long time
I've never read a single work of ayn rand
some of us actually think about things instead of being spoonfed; I know it's a nebulous concept to you, so you'll just have to take my word for it
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:15 PM mike27 is offline  
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deltabourne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Raven View Post
Insurance does not cover everything, and often times weasles it's way out of paying. Be thankful that you don't have thousands in medical bills - others aren't so lucky. Even with insurance, the big stuff still costs a lot of money. I pay for insurance so that I don't have to pay medical bills - not so that I only have to pay 20-40% of my bill. Insurance did not cover my ambulance ride... the one time I actually needed emergency care - I guess the insurance company assumed I should just drive myself to the hospital. Not to mention that going to the emergency room is a totally different copay than going to my regular doctor... because my regular doctor is available at 2am.

I would much rather pay a bit more taxes to know that there is no medical bill after insurance, there wouldn't be a copay, and that you would be afforded that same luxury.

If I were a doctor I wouldn't want to work in a system where people were afraid to come to me when they genuinely need help because they can't pay the copays... that seems rather counter intuitive to 'helping the sick'
I didn't say the system that's in place now wouldn't have to be changed at all. I think there should be more competition among insurers. Also, your opinion on doctors is intriguing. How come so many of them are coming to the US from Canada (as opposed to the other way around) if it's so bad for them here?

Also, I'm not sure what insurance you have but mine covers ambulance costs. Not only that, it covers emergency evacuation from any country in the world to any hospital of your choice. My grandfather actually used it once. They chartered him a special jet (in a 3rd world country) and flew him to England for an operation. Total cost was something like $4m. Didn't pay a penny. Think public health care would cover something like that? Although I should note, in a twist of irony, that this is actually a British health insurance provider.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:37 PM deltabourne is offline  
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The-Raven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post
I didn't say the system that's in place now wouldn't have to be changed at all. I think there should be more competition among insurers. Also, your opinion on doctors is intriguing. How come so many of them are coming to the US from Canada (as opposed to the other way around) if it's so bad for them here?

Also, I'm not sure what insurance you have but mine covers ambulance costs. Not only that, it covers emergency evacuation from any country in the world to any hospital of your choice. My grandfather actually used it once. They chartered him a special jet (in a 3rd world country) and flew him to England for an operation. Total cost was something like $4m. Didn't pay a penny. Think public health care would cover something like that? Although I should note, in a twist of irony, that this is actually a British health insurance provider.

Yeah, there's no way a US insurance company would do that for any random person - celebrity or politician maybe. But the fact your example is a British insurer is of course why you're afforded that treatment.

And my opinion on doctors is a moral one - Doctors who come to the US do it for the same reason most people come to the US - money. Doctors here make serious cash... you just have to pay the small price of your conscience telling you 'Give him the weaker meds, that way he'll have to come back.'
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:46 PM The-Raven is offline  
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rizla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27 View Post
I've never read a single work of ayn rand
some of us actually think about things instead of being spoonfed; I know it's a nebulous concept to you, so you'll just have to take my word for it

do you know what nebulous means
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:53 PM rizla is offline  
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mike27
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do you know what nebulous means

I do, but if you are confused by it, perhaps you can google it and learn something new instead of embarrassing yourself by implying that others are misusing terms when, really, it is you who has a poor vocabulary
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:06 PM mike27 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by rizla View Post
do you know what nebulous means

not clearly definable, of a shifting definition due to complexity combined with inate uncertainty usualy due to the fact that people like you ... get confused why they cant eat the sausage thats in their hand.

get it yet?
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:42 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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