General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
deltabourne
Mike27 is my bestest friend in the whole wide world.
 
This one is too easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
apparently your definition of progress covers about 2% of the adult population.
The definition of progress is defined by the percentage of people affected by a policy? According to whom?

Fallacy: Appeal to consequences

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...sequences.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
i'd say his definition probably holds more weight than yours.
Again, according to...?

Fallacy: False dilemma

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-dilemma.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
we have a democracy last time i checked.
Check again

Fallacy: Well, this is just wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
and libertarians are pro at losing elections.
So what?

Fallacy: Appeal to popularity

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...opularity.html
__________________
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss."
- Douglas Adams

Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer came down upon her head
Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer made sure that she was dead
Old 12-27-2007, 08:08 PM deltabourne is offline  
Reply With Quote
#76  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

1337rider
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Why don't all the ultra-libertarian douchebags just MOVE OUT if they aren't interested in participating in civil society?

Why don't all the socialist-liberals move to socialist european shitholes if they aren't interested in participating in the one truely free society left on this planet? I get so angry watching everyone piss away the amazing gift of freedom we have by giving the government more and more power. if you want that socialized crap, go to a country that is already infested with it and leave those who appreciate our freedom alone.
When the government confiscates your labor and money, they are confiscating your liberty.

By the way, it’s YOUR philosophy that flys in the face of the ideals this country was founded on. Don’t get all high and mighty to those who seek to preserve what makes this country great- personal freedom, and the responsibility that comes with it.
__________________
-06 Silverado 2500 Short bed
-2005 Suzuki SV650s
-1972 Nova

Last edited by 1337rider; 12-27-2007 at 09:49 PM..
Old 12-27-2007, 09:41 PM 1337rider is offline  
Reply With Quote
#77  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
bingstudent's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337rider View Post
By the way, itís YOUR philosophy that flys in the face of the ideals this country was founded on. Donít get all high and mighty to those who seek to preserve what makes this country great- personal freedom, and the responsibility that comes with it.

Things change, get over it and start living in the 21st century.
Old 12-27-2007, 10:16 PM bingstudent is offline  
Reply With Quote
#78  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Things change, get over it and start living in the 21st century.


more slogans less thought FTML
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 12-27-2007, 10:49 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#79  

deltabourne
Mike27 is my bestest friend in the whole wide world.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Things change, get over it and start living in the 21st century.
Fallacy: Appeal to Novelty

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...o-novelty.html
__________________
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss."
- Douglas Adams

Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer came down upon her head
Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer made sure that she was dead
Old 12-27-2007, 11:25 PM deltabourne is offline  
Reply With Quote
#80  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post
This one is too easy

The definition of progress is defined by the percentage of people affected by a policy? According to whom?

Fallacy: Appeal to consequences

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...sequences.html
Doesn't even hit close to home, did you even read the definition
Quote:
Again, according to...?

Fallacy: False dilemma

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-dilemma.html
You could have also read what he posted. According to HIM


So what?
Quote:
Fallacy: Appeal to popularity

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...opularity.html
How is the voting track record an appeal to popularity?
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 12-27-2007, 11:32 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#81  

deltabourne
Mike27 is my bestest friend in the whole wide world.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Doesn't even hit close to home, did you even read the definition
% of people covered is the consequence of each philosophy -> base your judgment on this -> appeal to consequence

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You could have also read what he posted. According to HIM

So what?
Uh, no. "I'd say" != "In my opinion"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
How is the voting track record an appeal to popularity?
Do I really need to explain this? Just because one party gets more votes (i.e., more popular) doesn't mean the one that gets less votes is inherently flawed.
__________________
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss."
- Douglas Adams

Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer came down upon her head
Bang bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer made sure that she was dead
Old 12-27-2007, 11:39 PM deltabourne is offline  
Reply With Quote
#82  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post
% of people covered is the consequence of each philosophy -> base your judgment on this -> appeal to consequence
"This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false."

If you wish to argue you'd find his (obvious) estimate untrue, or not hindering progress that's just fine. Considering it's obviously an estimate, and considering it's pretty obviously within reason to assume what he is saying would be a probable outcome, you'd be just better off picking something else than a jewish website listing fallacies which you didn't even read prior to posting.

Quote:
Uh, no. "I'd say" != "In my opinion"
Is that your opinion? Would you say that?

Quote:
Do I really need to explain this? Just because one party gets more votes (i.e., more popular) doesn't mean the one that gets less votes is inherently flawed.
Stating one is professional in losing in elections doesn't appeal to popularity. What it does is simply state one is pro in losing elections. Considering the context was really in all, regarding majority, there's no popular fallacy to be made.
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 12-27-2007, 11:52 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#83  

pyramid
COORS LIGHTSPEED: ENGAGED
 
pyramid's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337rider View Post
Why don't all the socialist-liberals move to socialist european shitholes if they aren't interested in participating in the one truely free society left on this planet?
lol, What happy fairy land do you think you live in? We are not the most free people on the planet. We happen to be the most incarcerated society on earth.

Quote:
I get so angry watching everyone piss away the amazing gift of freedom we have by giving the government more and more power.
healthcare for everyone is not empowering the government. It's empowering the people.

Quote:
if you want that socialized crap, go to a country that is already infested with it and leave those who appreciate our freedom alone.
universal healthcare is not antithetical to freedom. And what freedom are you bitching about? The freedom to pay far more than you should have to for health care? The freedom to die when you get denied or can't afford it? The freedom to be one medical incident away from bankruptcy? The freedom to die while waiting to have your needed life saving procedure approved by a private insurer?

For all the ridiculous moaning about how expensive it might be we seem to miss the fact that most of the modern world finds a way to provide their universal health care for about HALF what we ALREADY SPEND PER CAPITA while providing coverage to all their people and better or equal outcomes.

Oh noes, my tax rate might go up a percentage point. Versus what? A thousand dollars a month for private insurance? Which do you think is going to cost people more in the vast majority of cases?

We already provide state funded emergency care which cost more than the preventative measures that could have made many emergency room visits avoidable and which we don't pay for. Why the fuck do we go around thinking we are so damn brilliant for this system? It's fucking stupid.

Quote:
When the government confiscates your labor and money, they are confiscating your liberty.
Oh please, services cost money. It would be great if we could have a working government that provides all the services we expect but runs on happy thoughts and magic fairy dust instead of taxes and dollars but that isn't how the real world works.

Quote:
By the way, it’s YOUR philosophy that flys in the face of the ideals this country was founded on. Don’t get all high and mighty to those who seek to preserve what makes this country great- personal freedom, and the responsibility that comes with it.
You aren't preserving anything but profits for people who don't give a shit about you. The ideals of this nation include growing and adapting to new challenges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post
Yes. It's called charity.
Just like when the fire department puts your house fire out or the police catch the guy who robbed you, right? That's all charity?

If we did away with all taxes do you believe people would come extinguish the fire in your house out of the goodness of their hearts?

Quote:
Explain to me how adding health care services in a nation of morbidly obese people will make my taxes go down.
Tax incentives for being healthy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltabourne View Post

lol, that was not an appeal to novelty it was an appeal to move your thinking into the 21st century. We shouldn't need to revert our policies back to ye olde times to remember that it was not the fantastic paradise that many here seem to think it was.
__________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street

Last edited by pyramid; 12-28-2007 at 12:47 AM..
Old 12-28-2007, 12:42 AM pyramid is offline  
Reply With Quote
#84  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post


lol, that was not an appeal to novelty it was an appeal to move your thinking into the 21st century. We shouldn't need to revert our policies back to ye olde times to remember that it was not the fantastic paradise that many here seem to think it was.


sigh, of course it was a paradise. but technology moves on and what was paradise 50 years ago is third world squalor today. thats because 50 years ago people worked to make the technology that exists today. instead of standing in line waiting for those who work to provide it for them free of charge.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 12-28-2007, 01:04 AM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#85  

cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
cromicus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Raven View Post
You're putting too much faith in the 'goodness' of people.
And you have no idea how professionals behave in reality.

Quote:
despite what you think, private health care is not optional or free either. employers don't shrug their shoulders and eat the cost of providing group policies. all employees at your company earn less, and you pay for the insurance plan(s) they've chosen for you whether you like it or not.
It is true that the costs of benefits such as health insurance would otherwise be paid in wages (in an efficient market), but because the insurance is purchased on the basis of hundreds or thousands of policies at a time, the employer acquires a little bit of market power compared to an individual consumer. Thus the premiums are cheaper to the employer, but the employee is getting the same value.

To illustrate, suppose HellCare sells health insurance for $1,000 a month to individual consumers, but $500,000 a month for group-buys of 1,000 policies ($500 a month per). If the total compensation demanded by the firm's 1,000 employees is $3,000,000 a month, the employer can either pay $3,000,000 a month in cash, or pay $2,000,000 a month plus HellCare health insurance. The total payroll costs to the firm is $2,500,000 a month, but the firm is able to meet the employees' demand for $3,000,000 in compensation. The firm then has $500,000 left over, which it can use to pay dividends to the owners (some of whom might be retired), or expand the firm creating new jobs, or they can reduce prices and make life less expensive for everyone else.
__________________
you shall see hail fall from a clear sky
Old 12-28-2007, 02:49 AM cromicus is offline  
Reply With Quote
#86  

cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
cromicus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
None of the libertarians here see anything good/moral/noble/cool/progressive about helping other people get well?
That isn't the argument of state health care. The argument is that it isn't good to help others, therefore you have to be forced to do it. If you thought you could convince something to do something voluntarily, why would you need to tax them so they have no choice? At that point it becomes irrelevant whether or not a person thinks that it is a good thing.

In any event, find a list of the top 10 or top 100 charities in terms of donation revenue, they're filled with charity hospitals and the like, they're making tens of billions of dollars, so obviously people do want to make health care available to poor people voluntarily.

Quote:
(And I guess none of you realize that Universalized Healthcare might actually cost taxpayers less than what we have now.)
Yeah, like every other cost-effective government operation
__________________
you shall see hail fall from a clear sky
Old 12-28-2007, 03:01 AM cromicus is offline  
Reply With Quote
#87  

cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
cromicus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Why don't all the ultra-libertarian douchebags just MOVE OUT if they aren't interested in participating in civil society?
__________________
you shall see hail fall from a clear sky
Old 12-28-2007, 03:02 AM cromicus is offline  
Reply With Quote
#88  

cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
cromicus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
If we did away with all taxes do you believe people would come extinguish the fire in your house out of the goodness of their hearts?
If you tax everyone, do you think they're just going to keep producing out of the goodness of their hearts?
__________________
you shall see hail fall from a clear sky
Old 12-28-2007, 03:06 AM cromicus is offline  
Reply With Quote
#89  

Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
Tom Kazansky's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
Yeah, like every other cost-effective government operation

I had a friend who had cancer. I was talking with him one day and he was telling me about an American friend who had a smiliar condition. The bill my friend was faced with in Canada was about $150 for treatment because he wanted a private room in the hospital. That was it. In the US, the bill was $50,000.

The government is seldom the most efficient, however to argue that having exclusively private, for-profit insurance companies will be cheaper in the long run to all tax-payers would not necessarily be correct. Health insurance in the US is prohibitively expensive for a large segment of the American population, whereas in Canada at least people have access. Further, private insurance companies can't always be trusted to provide everything you need. Go talk to folks in New Orleans if you wish to dispute that.

For the record, I don't support full government health care, I support a two-tier system to ensure an effective system of checks and balances.
__________________
ERTW - Engineers Rule The World
Old 12-28-2007, 09:39 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
Reply With Quote
#90  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:19 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.