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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
(a) is measured in terms of (b). Nobody expects (b) is, can, or should be equal. So I'm not sure what (a) means -- something vaguely political about opportunity?
Educational equity is economic that focuses on equal spending for each student, it also includes other educational resources that are to be equalized regardless of race, gender, or socioeconomic status...something we don't have yet in America. Equity informs other issues like achievement and socio-emotional health, something traditionally difficult to measure. How do you accurately measure achievement when equity is unbalanced? How do you scale it right?

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(c) is a tautology.
Are there many problems in schools with rich white kids, period? At the risk of misquoting you, I believe you've said [student] poverty is the El Guapo of education. So it sounds like Equity is putting lots of money where no one seriously believes the problem is.

Like Pope points out, this is a one-off. We can't pay BA's six figures, even supposing anyone worth it would be happy showing eighth graders calcooloos the rest of his life. As an experiment, the design is poor: maybe the teaching is better because there's less red tape. If they succeed, we won't even know why!
If you are referring to people with just bachelor degrees, I highly doubt any teacher in TEP will have just a BA, unless there are 20+ years of experience. Expect most to hold masters or doctorates and have substantial teaching experience. Please explain to me how the design is flawed--I'm playing devils advocate here as I think there are problems but problems in implementation not design. The considerations for high qualified are extensive and demanding, the students are randomly sampled to create a typical urban school population, and targets are specifically defined.


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I wonder if a boarding school would be a better use of the charter (in this spirit, I like teacher-counselors, too. Social work "professionals" are quite capable of not helping). I like the classical bent of fourth-year Latin for 8th graders, but gimme a break. If it's clunky grammar appreciation you're after, show them how to write software.
I don't necessarily think teacher-counselors are what's best for American education, to be honest. We simply don't focus on emotional health as teachers. Perhaps this could be alleviated by having all professional development focusing on counseling techniques--that might help, but I would still be a bit uneasy.

As for Latin, well, I tend to agree with you. I personally put a lot of stock in artistic development for students, and would appreciate other offerings aside from music (although I highly value that too). Perhaps multiple languages would even be better than just latin, but to be honest I have done ZERO research into literacy. The analysis I'm doing for one professor on early childhood literacy development is my first experience.


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What is professional development for a fifth-grade teacher? A subscription to the American Journal of Mnemonics?
I hope you're just trying to be funny, because teacher professional development is not usually in content areas but in how to incorporate effective instructional strategies in a variety of different educational environments. If you're serious, then your statement accurately reflects the general opinion of education in America: no respect.

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Who's the fucking Ed.D., here?
If you mean me, I'm PhD. If you have an Ed.D, that's fucking awesome, because it means I'm not alone here.

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Willingness to learn isn't quantifiable, but it's not metaphysical. I never had a student want to learn who couldn't. I had many claim to want to learn, because they knew it was code for please pass me, and didn't.
I agree, but can we actually pay based on how this is assessed? I don't think we can.

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Eastern Europe, too. And yes, let's -- education is valued; equity is not. My impression of their paradigm is, you don't pass your A-levels, you get a one-way ticket to Hamburger University. That's okay. The world needs chicken nuggets and strippers.

We aren't culturally comfortable with that. We shed crocodile tears because everyone deserves college. Then we ask why college looks like Hamburger University.
I actually had a discussion on international comparative education lately, and I really do like the idea of multiple "tracks" for higher education after certain primary/secondary school years. Trade schools, technical academies, traditional universities. That's a test I'd like to see over here.

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Even if we can identify problems in education, isn't it fundamentally like herding cats? The damned things just don't listen.
Heh, well, I think it's a little less dire than that. We already know the problems, it's just finding the answers. That's very simplistic I know, but thats why things like TEP were designed. Results of this project, good or bad, have lasting implications that make shake the very foundations of what is considered best practices, even the ones I have.

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Great post.
In principle, I think it is...but in practice? You and I know much about education, as crom does as well...I think we would have a stake and say in education for our children (well, when we have them, but I don't know how old you are). But what about most parents? As a teacher, every parent I saw, even with the best of intentions for their child, knew absolutely nothing about education. We don't let the families of a patient tell a doctor to take out the heart if there is a problem with the liver--nor should we equalize the say in education among actors. In my opinion.
Old 03-22-2008, 10:33 AM Vendetta is offline  
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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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But what about most parents? As a teacher, every parent I saw, even with the best of intentions for their child, knew absolutely nothing about education. We don't let the families of a patient tell a doctor to take out the heart if there is a problem with the liver--nor should we equalize the say in education among actors. In my opinion.
The process is not that the family of the patient or the patient himself are not allowed to tell the doctor to do the wrong thing, it's that the doctor is to refuse to do the wrong thing on his own. This requires the doctor to think about what is right and wrong with every decision. For a teacher, the teacher is required to do whatever the administration tells him to do, therefore requiring no exercise of professional judgment. Therefore teachers everywhere are at a real loss for good professional judgment. I see the same thing in government lawyers versus private sector lawyers, so it's not like I'm picking on teachers or anything.
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:53 PM cromicus is offline  
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möbiustrip
 
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
Educational equity is economic that focuses on equal spending for each student...How do you accurately measure achievement when equity is unbalanced? How do you scale it right?
Is equity scaled, itself? Local median income, breadth of curriculum, ... ?

No offense, but you're describing an impossible top-down management SNAFU whose sole function seems to be keeping guys at the census bureau employed. Ask the person handing out the grades to measure achievement, and if you can't trust him, fire his ass.

Duct-taping leaks caused by the bureaucratic nightmare reminds me of Feynmann's assessment of the Challenger disaster.

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If you are referring to people with just bachelor degrees, I highly doubt any teacher in TEP will have just a BA, unless there are 20+ years of experience. Expect most to hold masters or doctorates and have substantial teaching experience.
I think it's ludicrous to imagine anyone with a postgraduate degree teaching 5th-8th grade. It's babysitting.

I'm also not sure how many digits of salary increase would lure a great teacher to Spanish Harlem. In athletic terms: you're a hotshot basketball coach who makes gifted athletes into champions. For what salary do you leave this professional satisfaction (and recognition) to direct the intramural program at Fat Camp?

It seems to me supply and demand are out of whack in this nominally white-collar industry, which is why I like cromicus's post. The hiring budget is totally divorced from attracting talent; [consequently?] the profession is supplemental income for a two-job household. My blasphemous perception is that the vast majority of teachers are housewives with college degrees. I'd love to hear if that demographic is changing.

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Please explain to me how the design is flawed--I'm playing devils advocate here as I think there are problems but problems in implementation not design. The considerations for high qualified are extensive and demanding, the students are randomly sampled to create a typical urban school population, and targets are specifically defined.
What I expect to happen is that performance goes up. I'm sure they'll pull better teachers than before. So we'll have "evidence" paying teachers an impossible salary helps.

I expect they won't compete anywhere near, say, Gentrified Whitey High in a suburb of an Ivy League, where the faculty brats put the rest of the nation to shame, for above-average (but not nearly TEP) bucks-per-kid. So we'll have counter-evidence.

Add that the school's charter can allow them to duck any number of federal and state regs -- these contrasts will be forgotten in the headlines. Maybe half the custodial staff is students' parents . Maybe lunch isn't recycled Vegemite and high fructose corn syrup. Maybe there's intramural cockfighting. The point is, it won't be clear how much of the New Deal's success is owed to the outrageous employee salary, even if the pool of qualified candidates were large enough to do this a few thousand times (which is fiscally impossible). "Under New Ownership, Business Increases Budget $50M, Does Better!" Soo...?

I claim it's bad experimental design because it can't be repeated, and it won't even settle the teacher salary question (much less in a way that's practical). For another sloppy analogy, it's like hoping to ramp up office morale and productivity by hiring a sushi chef and masseuse -- sure we expect a correlation, it's even "worked," but it's not a royal road to $700 shares.

There are too many hidden variables and too many implicit assumptions for the statistics to give answers. When your experiments only suggest questions, you're doing philosophy.

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I don't necessarily think teacher-counselors are what's best for American education, to be honest. We simply don't focus on emotional health as teachers. Perhaps this could be alleviated by having all professional development focusing on counseling techniques--that might help, but I would still be a bit uneasy.
To revisit my chauvinism, I have an impression teachers leave the profession precisely when they decide their lives need not involve mothering 100 kids a day. On reflection, it's silly kindergarten butt-wiping and senior college prep are even in the same bureaucratic tent.

You're right teachers don't need to wear yet another hat, it's just that I'd put a competent bartender up against any of the trained counselors I've met. You can't keep an amateur shrink on retainer, so the "pros" wind up doing as much clerical work as counseling. And in my cynical-ass opinion, telling kids the things they need to hear about life at that age would be professional suicide.

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As for Latin, well, I tend to agree with you. I personally put a lot of stock in artistic development for students, and would appreciate other offerings aside from music (although I highly value that too). Perhaps multiple languages would even be better than just latin
Art's a hard thing, too. The exposure needed to digest new ideas is at least as time-consuming as with academic subjects, and the practice required to assimilate them is much greater. It's no wonder art school is a full commitment. I tend to think the arts are kind of frivolous as approached in public school. My arty friends had no use for anything else, and were constantly told not to express themselves because it wouldn't go over on PTA night. I literally don't know how you tell a kid "Art is cool, stay off drugs!" with a straight face in 2008.

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I hope you're just trying to be funny, because teacher professional development is not usually in content areas but in how to incorporate effective instructional strategies in a variety of different educational environments.
A little. It's not that there's no respect, I just have no idea what the jargon means. I get the same vibe from the teaching caste at conferences -- a kind of priestly, protectionist feeling. I think highly of popular science outreach, where simple language is important to market yourself to the drooling public (as opposed to your direct investors) effectively.

Like "rich," not "high-socioeconomic status." Or "teach," not "incorporate effective instructional strategies in a variety of different educational environments." I say if you're talking like that, skip the middleman and run for office.

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If you mean me, I'm PhD.
I always forget you're on the computational side.

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I agree, but can we actually pay based on how this is assessed? I don't think we can.
We can, locally. The trouble is it doesn't scale for fuck-all, and throws equity out the window. The question that's important to me is how to reap the benefits of local, merit-based education that treats students as responsible thinking adults, for whom theater and relativity and Jung are more interesting than P. Diddy and Hot Topic, without opening the door to secessionist wackos.

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I actually had a discussion on international comparative education lately, and I really do like the idea of multiple "tracks" for higher education after certain primary/secondary school years. Trade schools, technical academies, traditional universities. That's a test I'd like to see over here.
Too many upper-lower-class jobs require a degree now. It's almost a certificate that says you're qualified to eat shit and grin about it. Nobody makes much fuss because they'd have gotten the same jobs anyway, minus the four years of sex and drunkenness on their parents' dime.

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Heh, well, I think it's a little less dire than that. We already know the problems, it's just finding the answers. That's very simplistic I know, but thats why things like TEP were designed. Results of this project, good or bad, have lasting implications that make shake the very foundations of what is considered best practices, even the ones I have.
How do you see TEP turning out?

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In principle, I think it is...but in practice? You and I know much about education, as crom does as well...I think we would have a stake and say in education for our children (well, when we have them, but I don't know how old you are). But what about most parents? As a teacher, every parent I saw, even with the best of intentions for their child, knew absolutely nothing about education. We don't let the families of a patient tell a doctor to take out the heart if there is a problem with the liver--nor should we equalize the say in education among actors. In my opinion.
I'm not an awfully democratic guy, but this issue more than any other scares the bejeezus out of me. I don't have kids and don't know if I will, but my thought on public school is currently "no fucking way." To be honest I'd like to see more and more infrastructure move online so we can work and learn from home and this whole monster can go the way of the dodo.

I didn't mean the piece I snipped to stand out; I have no illusions about letting the people who elected George W. Bush twice pick curriculum. I'm also by no means conservative but I find myself rooting for Peg Luksik:

+ Google Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then Google Video is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:20 AM möbiustrip is offline  
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