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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodeus
how can you have a problem with something that doesn't exist, except in the most tenuous and fog-filled way...? international law is a fiction...


He has to cling tenaciously to that idea because it is the lynchpin that holds together the fantasy world he lives in. Remove that delusion and he would be force to confront the reality that we live in a dangerous world where we and we alone are responsible for the safety of our citizens. There are far too many documented cases (Rwanda, Mogadishu, Slovakia) where UN security troops stood by and allowed those they were charged with protecting to be slaughtered while the UN security troops did nothing. That is the full value of international law, which is to say none at all.
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Old 07-15-2004, 06:01 PM arthur pendragon is offline  
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flurby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
Intelligence Intelligence Intelligence is what we gave him..

Also there was no embargo in place against Iraq in the 80's. Neither was there proposal to embargo Iraq at the current time during it's war with Iran which everyone wanted the war to be stalemate..

Also Corporations as usual are still free to trade with countries not at war with the United States..

We actually gave them strains of bio weapons too..as well as authorized the sale of weapons to them. Do you not understand that our government has control over who our arms companies sell to? They authorized the sale of military equipment to Iraq. They lifted the status of terrorist nation so the sale could go through. That is called ARMING them. Whether the USSR or France gave more is moot. I don't see them invading Iraq now on the idea of the very weapons we gave them in the first place.

Last edited by flurby; 07-15-2004 at 08:52 PM..
Old 07-15-2004, 07:06 PM flurby is offline  
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#77  

Vagamus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
He wants to force congressmen's to send their kids to war.. Hence defeats the point of an all-volunteer military..
Yeah, because walking around recruiting like the marines he depicted in the movie is some how forcing them to send their children to the military. Yep. Dunno bout you, but i didn't see anything forceful going on, in fact... what he did was less intrusive than those marines recruiting.

If you have proof that he wants to actually force congressmen to send their kids to the military, by all means, do tell.

Nice that you always seem to read/hear/interpret what you want to, instead of the actual event. Nice try.
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Old 07-15-2004, 07:22 PM Vagamus is offline  
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Vagamus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
How? Supplying the Muhadijeen w/ stingers & fundings =! Supporting Bin Laden.. Bin Laden joined the fight in Afghanistan with his own finances.. If you would recall that Bin Laden came from a family that owns a major construction company in Saudia Arabia with contracts mostly coming from the House of the Sauds
It doesn't? Wow, could have fooled me. Funny, I thought part of supporting was to provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.

Nah, we didn't supply him at all. Nevermind that Bin Laden was part of the Mujahidin at the time.

As for support of Iraq, you seem to forget that, at the time we were helping Iraq arm, we were using outside parties to buy soviet weaponary and equipment for the Contras. We also gave Saddam some billions in support, for an "Agricultural" fund, that he squandered and misused to further strengthen his armies.

So yeah, i've heard your brand of before, and you can't get around that we did have a hand. Of course, i mentioned all of this in other threads, but some people never read.
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Last edited by Vagamus; 07-15-2004 at 07:42 PM..
Old 07-15-2004, 07:30 PM Vagamus is offline  
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Zangmonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flurby
FALSE FALSE FALSE. They had NO ACTIVE WMD PROGRAM.

ACTIVE, Do you understand that? Not shells from 10+ years ago, active.


Sorry, wrong again.
The Kay Report showed active and hidden programs which included strains hidden in scientists home.

I never said that the 10+ year-old shells constituted the programs, learn to fucking read.
The fact that active research programs were in place that were working on and researching chemical and biological strains but was kept secret from the UN is what constitutes that Iraq had active CBW programs.

Read David Kay's report; You lose.
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Old 07-15-2004, 11:17 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flurby
We actually gave them strains of bio weapons too..as well as authorized the sale of weapons to them. Do you not understand that our government has control over who our arms companies sell to? They authorized the sale of military equipment to Iraq. They lifted the status of terrorist nation so the sale could go through. That is called ARMING them. Whether the USSR or France gave more is moot. I don't see them invading Iraq now on the idea of the very weapons we gave them in the first place.


What a fucking moron, no we did not. What we gave them was none weapons capable research samples of common dangerous viruses and bacteria. When we provided them with these none weapons capable research samples Iraq did not yet have a history of chemical or biological weapons programs or use. In order to employee a preemptive strategy a history of wrong doing must first be established. At the time Iraq received those research samples from us Iraq had no such history of wrong doings. The exact same thing is true of their nuclear program. At the time that they received information on nuclear technology they had no history of expansionism or of militaristic application of nuclear technology. Furthermore the nuclear technology that we provided Iraq with was not of a military nature but strictly civil commercial and medical technology. Virtually any civil commercial or medical technology can be applied to military applications. This in and of itself is insufficient justification to deny such technology to any nation that has no past history of wrong doings.
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:34 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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flurby
I can't think for myself so I let the Democrats do it for me!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur pendragon
What a fucking moron, no we did not. What we gave them was none weapons capable research samples of common dangerous viruses and bacteria. When we provided them with these none weapons capable research samples Iraq did not yet have a history of chemical or biological weapons programs or use. In order to employee a preemptive strategy a history of wrong doing must first be established. At the time Iraq received those research samples from us Iraq had no such history of wrong doings. The exact same thing is true of their nuclear program. At the time that they received information on nuclear technology they had no history of expansionism or of militaristic application of nuclear technology. Furthermore the nuclear technology that we provided Iraq with was not of a military nature but strictly civil commercial and medical technology. Virtually any civil commercial or medical technology can be applied to military applications. This in and of itself is insufficient justification to deny such technology to any nation that has no past history of wrong doings.


Arthur, you truely are a tard. Are you really going to try and convince someone that we were at no fault for giving them chem/bio materials and then pushing them into a war with Iran.. What did we THINK they were going to do with that shit. I know you are biased, but shit, sometimes reality has to hit you..some day..

If you will look at the status of Iraq before we sent it over..it wasn't so great. We changed their status so we COULD send the shit over.

Central to these "moves" was the cementing of a military and political alliance with Saddam Hussein's repressive regime, so as to build up Iraq as a military counterweight to Iran. In 1982, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from the State Department's list of countries that allegedly supported terrorism. On December 19-20, 1983, Reagan dispatched his Middle East envoy--none other than Donald Rumsfeld--to Baghdad with a hand-written offer of a resumption of diplomatic relations, which had been severed during the 1967 Arab-Israel war. On March 24, 1984, Rumsfeld was again in Baghdad.

On that same day, the UPI wire service reported from the UN: "Mustard gas laced with a nerve agent has been used on Iranian soldiers ... a team of UN experts has concluded ... Meanwhile, in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, US presidential envoy Donald Rumsfeld held talks with foreign minister Tariq Aziz."

The day before, Iran had accused Iraq of poisoning 600 of its soldiers with mustard gas and Tabun nerve gas.

There is no doubt that the US government knew Iraq was using chemical weapons. On March 5, 1984, the State Department had stated that "available evidence indicates that Iraq has used lethal chemical weapons". The March 30, 1984, NYT reported that US intelligence officials has "what they believe to be incontrovertible evidence that Iraq has used nerve gas in its war with Iran and has almost finished extensive sites for mass producing the lethal chemical warfare agent".

However, consistent with the pattern throughout the Iran-Iraq war and after, the use of these internationally outlawed weapons was not considered important enough by Rumsfeld and his political superiors to halt Washington's blossoming love affair with Hussein.

The March 29, 1984, NYT, reporting on the aftermath of Rumsfeld's talks in Baghdad, stated that US officials had pronounced "themselves satisfied with relations between Iraq and the US and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been restored in all but name". In November 1984, the US and Iraq officially restored diplomatic relations.


Notice March 1984 we knew they were gassing people, November 1984 we restore diplomatic relations.

Some of the 'STUFF' we sent over to them.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/flow/iraq/seed.htm

Notice the dates...oh yeah, well after we knew they were using poison gas.
I can get you more links if you want.
You lose.
Old 07-16-2004, 08:25 PM flurby is offline  
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#82  

arthur pendragon
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You couldnt be a bigger imbecile if you tried. Did you even bother to read that link? Talk about shooting yourself in the fucking head. You tin-foil hat people are pathetic.


Quote:
Agriculture and Water Resource Department:
  • On 3/21/86, the US Department of Commerce issued a license to the American Type Culture Collection (ATCC) to export aspergillus fungal cultures, used in the production of aflatoxin, to Iraq. ATCC officials said the cultures were not delivered.[1]
Atomic Energy Commission:
  • Between 1985-89, ATCC made 17 shipments of "attenuated strains of various toxins and bacteria" to Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission.[2]
Basra University:
  • According to a 1991 US military intelligence memo, Japanese scientists had been assisting scientists from Basra University since 1984 in researching mycotoxins produced by soil fungi, including aflatoxin. The Japanese-Iraqi team used three species of aspergillus mold to produce aflatoxin.[3]
  • In 1985, the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) sent a shipment of West Nile Fever virus to an Iraqi researcher.[4]
College of Medicine (Baghdad):
  • On 11/30/84, the US Department of Commerce issued a license to ATCC to export aspergillus fungal cultures to Iraq for delivery to the College of Medicine in Baghdad. ATCC officials said the cultures were not delivered.[5]
State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP):
  • Iraq’s State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered incubators and culture media from Germany’s Water Engineering Trading (W.E.T.).[6]
Salman Pak:
  • </B>
  • In 1985, the CDC sent three shipments of West Nile Fever virus to Iraq for use in medical research.[7]
University of Baghdad:
  • </B>
  • Between 1985-1989, the ATCC supplied Iraq with several pathogens, including Clostridium botulinum, and various strains of anthrax.[8]
Unspecified Locations:
  • Between 1985-89, US firms exported Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Clostridium botulinum, Histoplasma capsulatam, Brucella melitensis, Clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene), Clostridium tetani (tentanus), Escherichia coli, and "dozens of other pathogenic biological agents," to Iraq.[9]
  • Between 1985-89, the US firm ATCC sent Iraq up to 70 shipments including 21 strains of anthrax, 15 Class III pathogens, E. coli, Salmonella cholerasuis, Clostridium botulinum, Brucella meliteusis, and Clostidium perfringens. [This may include shipments already listed to the Agriculture and Water Resource Department, Atomic Energy Commission, and College of Medicine].[10]
  • Between 1984-89, the CDC sent Iraq more than 80 agents, including botulinum toxoid, Yersinia pestis, dengue virus, and West Nile antigen and antibody. [This may include shipments already listed to Basra University, and Salman Pak.][11]
  • In 1988, Iraq unsuccessfully attempted to obtain biological agents from the UK military research center at Porton Down.[12]
  • In 2/87, Germany’s Sigma Chemie supplied seven ounces of trichothecene mycotoxin, including T-2 toxin and HT-2 toxin, to the German firm Plato Kuehn, which indicated that the material would be exported to Iraq.[13]
  • In 1987, Josef Kuhn of Germany delivered 100 milligrams of trichothecene mycotoxin T-2 to Iraq.[14]
  • According to US Senator John McCain, Iraq obtained tularemia virus from the United States. The US Department of State said it had found no evidence to support Senator McCain’s allegation.[15]
  • Iraq obtained "deadly pathogens" from the Pasteur Institute in Paris.[16]
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Last edited by arthur pendragon; 07-16-2004 at 11:17 PM..
Old 07-16-2004, 11:13 PM arthur pendragon is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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double post.......
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:14 PM arthur pendragon is offline  
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ViriiK
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Problem is they're all biological vs the chemicals that was used against the Kurds and the Iranian's..

In relations to the chemical weapons program.
There's this
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/az120103.html
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Last edited by ViriiK; 07-16-2004 at 11:28 PM..
Old 07-16-2004, 11:17 PM ViriiK is offline  
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#85  

flurby
I can't think for myself so I let the Democrats do it for me!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur pendragon
You couldnt be a bigger imbecile if you tried. Did you even bother to read that link? Talk about shooting yourself in the fucking head. You tin-foil hat people are pathetic.


[/list]


Just as I thought... Insults instead of anything to resemble something intelligent. I have come to expect this out of our resident music major. Read the bottom of the link..yeah, the stuff about anthrax and such. Yeah.
Old 07-17-2004, 02:12 AM flurby is offline  
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chriszuma
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inf
The title of this thread is a sure indicator of the avarige intelligance of the pro bush people.
oh sure, its so easy to call the other side stupid, but here's the fact: Bush is a replublican candidate. Republicans are generally comprised of the rich. Rich people are generally smarter than poor people (don't argue. if they were smart, they would be rich too).
Old 07-17-2004, 11:20 PM chriszuma is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flurby
Just as I thought... Insults instead of anything to resemble something intelligent. I have come to expect this out of our resident music major. Read the bottom of the link..yeah, the stuff about anthrax and such. Yeah.

You fucking imbecile, you haven’t posted anything that warrants an intelligent reply. What you posted was complete and utter concocted by tin-foil hat wearing retards trying to make a case through omission and misinformation. Were this not so you would have known that all of the viruses and pathogens we (The United States) sent Iraq were sterile medical research cultures. But you don’t know this and your sources obfuscate this information because to include it would decimate their tin-foil hat conspiracies. The fact that you post this is why you do not deserve a serious intelligent response.

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Old 07-18-2004, 08:06 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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flurby
I can't think for myself so I let the Democrats do it for me!
 
Jesus, you would think your degree from the UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY would have made a dent in your stupidity. You make claims with NO information, none. Your kind of idiot is the best, since they are so easy to make look like fools. I have already made you look like a complete idiot with your chemical weapon claims, then your education claims, now you are trying for a trio I guess.
Old 07-18-2004, 11:42 AM flurby is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flurby
Jesus, you would think your degree from the UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY would have made a dent in your stupidity. You make claims with NO information, none. Your kind of idiot is the best, since they are so easy to make look like fools. I have already made you look like a complete idiot with your chemical weapon claims, then your education claims, now you are trying for a trio I guess.
You mean Biological Weapons Claims..

I already proved Chemicals just a few post above..
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Old 07-18-2004, 02:34 PM ViriiK is offline  
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