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claffix
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebread View Post


You'll have to back this up with some white papers or something. As far as I know, lug centric wheels are designed to center the wheel during install only. The forces transmitted to the vehicle from the wheel are still done so through the interface between the hub and the wheel center.

Here ya go, white and everything

http://www.auskellian.com/paul/links...TR7_wheels.htm
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Old 07-11-2009, 10:51 PM claffix is offline  
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Whitebread
 
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You are interpreting it incorrectly. The load bearing surface they speak of is the surface providing the force which centers the wheel during install. The friction between the hub and the wheel still carries the full weight of the vehicle. Again, lugs never carry the vehicles weight.
Old 07-11-2009, 11:54 PM Whitebread is offline  
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gee
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Originally Posted by Whitebread View Post
They're also utter crap. Twenty dollars for anything that should be a precise instrument probably means it is a far cry from accurate.
They're calibrating torque wrenches in our machine shop today, just for kicks I brought in my "Power Fist", 150lb-ft torque wrench from Princess Auto. I think the thing cost me $20 when I originally bought it several years ago. God knows how many times the thing has been dropped since then.

On the 70lb-ft setting I left it at for doing rims, it clicked at 78.
Turned it down to 40lb-ft, clicked at 44.
Turned it up to 150lb-ft. Clicked at 162.

The adjustment on the thing was rusted and siezed, I managed to free it up and recalibrate it:

40lb-ft setting: 37
70lb-ft setting: 71
150lb-ft setting: 156.

Draw your own conclusions.
Old 07-13-2009, 07:15 AM gee is offline  
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Whitebread
 
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They're calibrating torque wrenches in our machine shop today, just for kicks I brought in my "Power Fist", 150lb-ft torque wrench from Princess Auto. I think the thing cost me $20 when I originally bought it several years ago. God knows how many times the thing has been dropped since then.

On the 70lb-ft setting I left it at for doing rims, it clicked at 78.
Turned it down to 40lb-ft, clicked at 44.
Turned it up to 150lb-ft. Clicked at 162.

The adjustment on the thing was rusted and siezed, I managed to free it up and recalibrate it:

40lb-ft setting: 37
70lb-ft setting: 71
150lb-ft setting: 156.

Draw your own conclusions.

You have one tool from presumably a low price auto supply store that performed within 8-12% of target value before calibration and 1.5-7.5% after. That's one instance that performs well enough for chassis work after a few years of abuse. Show me statistics that prove the wrenches and other tools from cheap supply places perform as well or better than the more expensive brands like SK, Armstrong, MAC, Sanp-On, Precision Instruments, etc and I will yield. My experience with cheap tools from places like Harbor Freight has taught me otherwise. I picked up a set of cast and ground extensions for 1/2" drive from a Harbor Freight storefront near me to finish up a job without spending much cash and they turned out to be trash. The tolerances were 5 miles wide. The sockets wouldn't stay on and the extensions themselves would fall right off my ratchets. I've also used similarly cheap hand tools from for example, the duralast brand and they also feel cheap. The ratchet mechanism sticks after little use and everything seems to wear out far more quickly. I think its entirely possible to get a tool that performs well and lasts long from a cheap brand name but the likelihood of that is quite low. I'm a big believer in "buy cheap, spend twice" or something to that effect.

Edit: I ended up buying a Precision Instruments split beam wrench for about the same price as a Craftsman equivalent which isn't well regarded, as least according to the reviews on sears.com. Good tool without the Snap-on markup.
Old 07-13-2009, 08:25 AM Whitebread is offline  
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gee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebread View Post
You have one tool from presumably a low price auto supply store that performed within 8-12% of target value before calibration and 1.5-7.5% after. That's one instance that performs well enough for chassis work after a few years of abuse. Show me statistics that prove the wrenches and other tools from cheap supply places perform as well or better than the more expensive brands like SK, Armstrong, MAC, Sanp-On, Precision Instruments, etc and I will yield. My experience with cheap tools from places like Harbor Freight has taught me otherwise. I picked up a set of cast and ground extensions for 1/2" drive from a Harbor Freight storefront near me to finish up a job without spending much cash and they turned out to be trash. The tolerances were 5 miles wide. The sockets wouldn't stay on and the extensions themselves would fall right off my ratchets. I've also used similarly cheap hand tools from for example, the duralast brand and they also feel cheap. The ratchet mechanism sticks after little use and everything seems to wear out far more quickly. I think its entirely possible to get a tool that performs well and lasts long from a cheap brand name but the likelihood of that is quite low. I'm a big believer in "buy cheap, spend twice" or something to that effect.

Edit: I ended up buying a Precision Instruments split beam wrench for about the same price as a Craftsman equivalent which isn't well regarded, as least according to the reviews on sears.com. Good tool without the Snap-on markup.
Princess Auto is more or less the Canadian equivalent of Harbor Freight, and "Power Fist" is their house brand for cheap/crap tools.

We've got a spendy set of digitals here in various drive sizes (don't remember the name, something german), and none of them was out by more than 1% after a year of use. My wrench was the worst one measured by far.

Snap-On rates their wrenches (according to their website) at +-4%, and that makes my wrench look bad *after* calibration. Haven't looked up any others.
Old 07-13-2009, 08:58 AM gee is offline  
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Whitebread
 
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Princess Auto is more or less the Canadian equivalent of Harbor Freight, and "Power Fist" is their house brand for cheap/crap tools.

We've got a spendy set of digitals here in various drive sizes (don't remember the name, something german), and none of them was out by more than 1% after a year of use. My wrench was the worst one measured by far.

Snap-On rates their wrenches (according to their website) at +-4%, and that makes my wrench look bad *after* calibration. Haven't looked up any others.

First let me say that the brands up north are hilarious. Power Fist from Princess Auto. Pure

Anyway, I thought about bringing up the accuracy of the high dollar wrenches but I thought that would be superfluous when we just discussed how the condition of the threads can have a huge effect on bolt tension. I'm mainly interested in the consistent performance and reliability over time of these expensive wrenches. I hear too many stories about 50 dollar wrenches breaking after 5 microseconds to really justify buying one (again )

Also, Snap-on make wrenches rated from +-4% to +-1%. I believe the really expensive electronic ones that measure angle in like 3 units, torque in like 8 units and tell you the meaning of life are +-1%.
Old 07-13-2009, 09:51 AM Whitebread is offline  
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xmitr
 
Powerfist calibration

Referring to his Powerfist torque wrench, Gee wrote:
"The adjustment on the thing was rusted and siezed, I managed to free it up and recalibrate it:"

What/where is the calibration adjustment?

thanks
Don
Old 11-16-2011, 12:40 PM xmitr is offline  
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gee
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There's a locking nut inside the handle. The handle screws onto a threaded rod, and the nut goes on after it and tightens against the handle to lock it in place. To calibrate, you loosen the nut, rotate the handle to the measured torque and retighten the nut.

You'll need a fairly thin and deep socket to get at the nut - I found one which fit in a really crappy socket set. You'll also need to soak the heck out of the nut in WD40/PB blaster/etc to get it loose.
Old 11-17-2011, 04:46 AM gee is offline  
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uRizen
 
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When I come across those high torque bolts I mark the edge of the bolt head with a line that carries over onto the engine/flywheel/hub before removal. When I go to put things back in I crank the shit out of it until the two lines match up.

That's worked for the last three timing belt swaps I have done on my beaters and for the flywheel nut on my old Accord.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:22 AM uRizen is offline  
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asa
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how has it worked? have you checked the torque setting afterwards?
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:26 AM asa is offline  
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uRizen
 
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how has it worked? have you checked the torque setting afterwards?

Fuck no, my shitty torque wrench caps out at 100ft/lbs.

It's an old trick my father taught me, no idea how accurate it is. When I do the timing belt on my Protege5 in 7,000 miles I'll borrow my uncle's set of torque wrenches and see how it matches up.
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Last edited by uRizen; 11-18-2011 at 08:32 AM..
Old 11-18-2011, 08:23 AM uRizen is offline  
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ritalinjoe
 
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Eh, I got a slightly used Craftsman torque wrench off of ebay for 75 bucks. It goes from 25-250 lb-ft. I got it for like 60 bucks after shipping.

Amazingly, I had my brother take it to his shop when they were calibrating torque wrenches and it was literally the most accurate one in the shop. Maybe because I don't use it much, but it beat out Snap-on's, MAC's and a bunch of other ones.

Supposedly the key is to always zero out the wrench when it's not in use. If you're torquing a 60 lb-ft bolt, dont leave it at 60. Take it all the way down, well not down far enough to break it.

That's what I do with mine and when it was calibrated, every measurement was spot on except for 100 lb-ft. It read 101. Oops.
Old 11-18-2011, 01:12 PM ritalinjoe is offline  
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asa
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yup, when not in use set it at it's lowest setting

also, before you use, to get an accurate reading you need to exercise the torque wrench by setting it at it's highest setting and click it half a dozen times, helps make sure everything inside gets lubricated properly before use
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:26 PM asa is offline  
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ritalinjoe
 
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Seems kinda hard to do at 250 lb-ft.
Old 11-18-2011, 04:29 PM ritalinjoe is offline  
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u467
 
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While I'm not expert, I'm CONVINCED bolts are designed to operate in the plastic zone only because its cheaper to design a bolt with a weaker alloy.

This intrigued me so I did a bit of searching, as I was wondering the reason behind the use of these type of bolts instead of hardened higher grade bolts.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...uetoangle.aspx

http://www.acl.co.nz/Tech/Torque%20T...0Headbolts.pdf

TL;DR - fasteners are used in mission critical locations with intentional plastic deformation. The main benefits being smaller diameter bolts which is conducive to gasket sealing.


btw what division of fsae are you competing in?
Old 11-18-2011, 05:17 PM u467 is offline  
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