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Captain Moosehead
 
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Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
i don't think they are trying to compete with themselves here, they are trying to keep f-15 sales going a little bit longer by: 1 getting current f-15e customers to buy new airframes, and 2 giving them the option to just buy a cft kit to upgrade their current f-15s. current f-15 customers are more likely to go with another variant of the f-15 because their pilots and maintenance crews are already trained on how to operate and maintain the f-15 and all the support equipment is already in place for the f-15.

according to wikipedia (lol wikipedia) korea spent 100 million a pop for their order of f-15's which is a whole lot more than i expected while the usaf just spent 30 million a piece. that makes me wonder how much international sales of the superhornet are going to cost...or how much a foreign version of the f-35 is going to cost. also the f-35 is still far from going into production

The F-15SE isn't a simple kit - it looks like they reworked parts of the air frame to make it more "stealthy". Brazil apparently is considering the Super hornet next to the Grpien so it can't be that expensive (although the Eurofighter I believe is still in that contest and is expensive as well). Interoperability is important but not a guarantee. At some point an airframe can only be expanded to do so much. The F-20 was essentially a F-5 gutted and reworked but given the choice between that or the new F-16 nations went with the F-16. A number of nations in Eastern Europe are ditching their MiG's for whatever Western fighter suits their needs. I can't imagine a single nation who has the F-15E who would want to either replace it already and needs an expensive second rate stealth aircraft that wouldn't have other "better" options. The F-35 has an advantage that even with equal cost, a nation like Turkey for example, would be allowed to produce certain portions domestically which means a percentage of the cost stays within the user nation. As far as production goes - the F-15SE isn't exactly ready for production either.
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Old 03-24-2009, 05:18 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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afxacid
 
there are plenty of customers (Israeli, South Korea, Singapore, Saudis? etc) that could/would want this f-15 for an extension until f-35 arrives.

usaf has no foreseeable option to even consider this plane when f-35 is on the horizon (for primary air superiority role)..it doesn't make any sense and no one would debate it.
especially with the direction of modern air combat/scenarios of where usaf are moving towards.

the new f-15 has a frontal RCS reduction, but does nothing (especially with regards to intake RCS reductions) on the bottom surface (against IADS/ground based radar), nor does it have IR reductions on the tail.

this plane/upgrade isn't for the US by any means. f-15 should be operable until 2030-2035? is that still the latest figure? would help with upgrades, but i don't think you can compare this bird against f-22 or especially f-35 orders.

it can and will help air-to-air interception (get a little closer for AMRAAM launch window?, but it is not designed with low observable from the ground up and from all aspects...especially to target ground based radar stations and other targets.

times have changed, dramatically. the f-35 passive sensor suite and LO/VLO is the direction. there should be little debate on/for this bird for the USAF...it's quite null. as for other countries, it makes sense. there is a large market out there for countries who won't (at this time) be able to afford the f-35..not to mention order priorities for other countries/top tiers.


Quote:
...Adding radar absorbent materials to leading edges can soften the F-15SE's head-on radar signature enough to be competitive against the frontal aspect radar signature of the export version of Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Jones claims. "We know we can get to the US government release level for international customers," he adds.

Canting both vertical stabilisers by 15° is intended to reduce radar returns to the side, but also reduces drag slightly on the aft section. Finally, embedding missiles and bombs inside a heavily modified conformal fuel tank also reduces radar signature in all directions, and allows the F-15SE to perform its warfighting mission even with "clean" wings.

Boeing acknowledges that the F-15SE's stealth improvements do not help against ground-based radar systems, which are critical for waging offensive strikes against opponents armed with surface-to-air missile systems. Lowering the F-15SE's thermal signature - a critical stealthy feature for the Lockheed F-22 Raptor - is also not part of Boeing plans.

But Boeing says the Silent Eagle is aimed at international customers more likely to use the it for defensive, counter-air missions, rather than offensive strikes in defended airspace where all-aspect stealth is necessary for survival.

Despite the stealth improvements, Boeing says the F-15SE will not trade off sensor or aerodynamic performance. Its Raytheon APG-63(V)3 radar would remain canted slightly forward rather than tilted back, preserving coverage and range at the expense of head-on radar cross section.

Moreover, Boeing has designed the F-15SE to also function as a non-stealthy, multirole aircraft with the F-15E's full weapons payload of 13,200kg (29,000lb). A conformal fuel tank with an internal weapons bay could be quickly removed after landing, allowing the aircraft to take off again with a full payload within 2h, it says....




Quote:
Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/...90317a_nr.html



as the article says its geared towards international buyers. the us air force is throwing all of its eggs in the f-22 and UAVs. wonder how much fuel capacity it loses with those cft's...i think the term cft is now a misnomer...it should be conformal weapons bay

and who's gonna be the first buyer? israel?
what do you mean, putting all the eggs in one basket with f-22 and UAV? i don't understand how you can say that..with you being someone in the position (and having the first-hand-knowledge) that you do

Last edited by afxacid; 03-24-2009 at 06:50 PM..
Old 03-24-2009, 06:39 PM afxacid is offline  
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SKYY
 
Why not just buy Sukhois and a bunch of Vempyl's latest weapons? Probably way cheaper, and seemingly effective if you can buy them en masse.

The only downside is that fucked up soviet style HUD.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:19 PM SKYY is offline  
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Captain Moosehead
 
To the idea of buying F-15SE as an interim fighter until the F-35 makes no sense. If you drop 100 million per an article with another 10 million or some huge number on the life span of the article (spare parts etc) you generally don't get rid of it faster than people ditch cars. This of course is all assuming that the F-15Se will be for sale before the F-35 which it probably won't if it was just annouced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYY View Post
Why not just buy Sukhois and a bunch of Vempyl's latest weapons? Probably way cheaper, and seemingly effective if you can buy them en masse.

The only downside is that fucked up soviet style HUD.

Arms essentially make you an indebted servant to the dealer. Even if a nation like Russia were allowed to purchase say an F-22, it wouldn't be in their best interests (aside from the reverse engineering) as the U.S. could and would use it's spare parts veto on Russian foreign policy. This is essentially what we did to Iran and why their F-14 are worthless and sit on the ground all day. It's not always about cost or even performance; geopolitical alignment has alot to do with it.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:31 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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afxacid
 
Why would you want f15se's when f35 flies further, cruises faster, turns quicker, has true LO, better avionics suite, cheaper to maintain, etc

Will really satisfy the gen 4.5 market against eurocanards and sukhois
That market is still extremely strong
Old 03-25-2009, 06:49 AM afxacid is offline  
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prometheum
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afxacid View Post
there are plenty of customers (Israeli, South Korea, Singapore, Saudis? etc) that could/would want this f-15 for an extension until f-35 arrives.

usaf has no foreseeable option to even consider this plane when f-35 is on the horizon (for primary air superiority role)..it doesn't make any sense and no one would debate it.
especially with the direction of modern air combat/scenarios of where usaf are moving towards.

the new f-15 has a frontal RCS reduction, but does nothing (especially with regards to intake RCS reductions) on the bottom surface (against IADS/ground based radar), nor does it have IR reductions on the tail.

this plane/upgrade isn't for the US by any means. f-15 should be operable until 2030-2035? is that still the latest figure? would help with upgrades, but i don't think you can compare this bird against f-22 or especially f-35 orders.

it can and will help air-to-air interception (get a little closer for AMRAAM launch window?, but it is not designed with low observable from the ground up and from all aspects...especially to target ground based radar stations and other targets.

times have changed, dramatically. the f-35 passive sensor suite and LO/VLO is the direction. there should be little debate on/for this bird for the USAF...it's quite null. as for other countries, it makes sense. there is a large market out there for countries who won't (at this time) be able to afford the f-35..not to mention order priorities for other countries/top tiers.

what do you mean, putting all the eggs in one basket with f-22 and UAV? i don't understand how you can say that..with you being someone in the position (and having the first-hand-knowledge) that you do

the latest figure for the f-15 is 32,000 hours(upped from 16000 hours)...for those who don't know that's a shit ton of hours. the f-15a was purchased with the figure 4000 hours in mind. i don't think anyone is buying this with the thought "its just an extension until the f-35 arrives" in mind...that idea is just ridiculous. why would anyone buy it if the f-35 is just beyond the horizon.

i'm not sure maintenance for an f-35 would exactly be"cheap" compared to an f-15.

no one is debating whether or not the US is going to end up buying this jet or whether or not it can compete against the f-22 or the f-35...the answer is quite obviously no for both questions. but i do see the us buying these conformal fuel tanks or modifying existing fuel tanks for the extra room to cram more avionics in.

Quote:
Notionally, Boeing estimates the F-15SE’s cost, including airframe, spares and training, at $100 million each.
so that $100 million per aircraft figure really isn't the unit cost of each jet its the cost of everything. i'm willing to bet an f-35 is going to cost almost twice that amount.

the USAF has no interest in buying any fighter that's not 5th gen or higher. thats what i mean by putting all their eggs in the UAV/f-22 basket

Quote:
Originally Posted by afxacid View Post
Why would you want f15se's when f35 flies further, cruises faster, turns quicker, has true LO, better avionics suite, cheaper to maintain, etc

Will really satisfy the gen 4.5 market against eurocanards and sukhois
That market is still extremely strong

i bet the f-15se would still fly further even with the smaller fuel capacity in each cft

this isn't designed to compete against the f-35
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:29 PM prometheum is offline  
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Captain Moosehead
 
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this isn't designed to compete against the f-35

Then why give it the stealth that is sure to be as crappy as the F-18E/F or the Eurofighter but with an effective payload of the F-35?
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:39 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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prometheum
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
Then why give it the stealth that is sure to be as crappy as the F-18E/F or the Eurofighter but with an effective payload of the F-35?

honestly i think thats just a gimmick, i think the EW and radar systems on this jet have been massively overhauled...that would be the largest buying point for me if i were a perspective buyer.
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:55 PM prometheum is offline  
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Captain Moosehead
 
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honestly i think thats just a gimmick, i think the EW and radar systems on this jet have been massively overhauled...that would be the largest buying point for me if i were a perspective buyer.

But then why not buy the avionics and not the airframe? Granted not everything is interchangeable but Boeing is a big enough company to shove whatever they have into a neat little box for $50 million R&D.
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:22 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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afxacid
 
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Then why give it the stealth that is sure to be as crappy as the F-18E/F or the Eurofighter but with an effective payload of the F-35?

like i said above, it will only benefit from RCS reduction from a frontal aspect.

for interception, this could buy you some extra time to get into the launch window. every-bit counts, especially against modern PESA/AESA radar.

it is a mild upgrade to keep things interesting in the -still-very-hot- 4.5gen aircraft market.

and there is still a hole to fill until f-35 arrives...and even when it does, there is a waiting line. that is a lot of time to fill.

the f-15 obviously has proven capabilities, and many countries with f-15 in inventory are used to the maintenancet/training, etc...so wouldn't it make sense to go with an upgraded platform vs looking at other 4.5gen aircraft?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
But then why not buy the avionics and not the airframe? Granted not everything is interchangeable but Boeing is a big enough company to shove whatever they have into a neat little box for $50 million R&D.


who says it is that simple? there may be aspects you are overlooking.
and who would want to buy a $50 million upgrade package when the airframe is towards end of life?


Quote:
the USAF has no interest in buying any fighter that's not 5th gen or higher. thats what i mean by putting all their eggs in the UAV/f-22 basket



i bet the f-15se would still fly further even with the smaller fuel capacity in each cft

this isn't designed to compete against the f-35
i agree...mis-understood what you wrote.

f-22 fills a niche market / purpose / mission. it isn't designed to be the work-horse; it is designed to knock the doors down on the opening days of war, and to establish air superiority. after all air defenses are destroyed, the legacy (4.5gen) fighters can do the dirty work.

not to mention, it is too expensive to put up huge numbers of aircraft.

f-35 will be cost effective due to sheer economic principles. not to mention the sensor suite and design based around what the usaf sees as the future/modern air combat scenarios (since 1980).
Old 03-25-2009, 05:58 PM afxacid is offline  
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:40 PM afxacid is offline  
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boeing's dying gasp into the fighter market (which is dying itself)
Old 03-25-2009, 07:08 PM aoeoae is offline  
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#27  

prometheum
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
But then why not buy the avionics and not the airframe? Granted not everything is interchangeable but Boeing is a big enough company to shove whatever they have into a neat little box for $50 million R&D.

it takes about 40 man hours to run 1 rwr cable from the wingtip of the plane to the center of the jet. it takes 3 1/2 weeks just to install a 3rd radio into the aircraft and run all the ancillary wiring associated with it plus upgrade the software on all the computers on the aircraft that interact with it to work, and the new software is almost never backwards compatible with old software. so your spare parts have to get reprogrammed when you swap them jet to jet. most avionics upgrades aren't simply "drop in replacements"

from what i understand the radar package the usaf is going with will take well over a month to install alone. i really have to reiterate these upgrades aren't just swapping out one box for another. the 2 main obstacles for the strike eagle i personally see for the us air force right now are: 1 even with the larger generators we are rapidly reaching the point where the generators will simply not put out enough power to run everything at once anymore and 2 the ECS system will have a very difficult time coping with the cooling needs of an upgraded radar and EW suite. if you're talking about upgrading the ECS system you're talking about putting a jet down for at least a month. you avoid all this by buying an aircraft with a more powerful ecs package installed

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Originally Posted by aoeoae View Post
boeing's dying gasp into the fighter market (which is dying itself)

boeing is rolling out f-15's and f-18's faster than lockheed is f-22's and f-35's
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Last edited by prometheum; 03-25-2009 at 10:14 PM..
Old 03-25-2009, 10:09 PM prometheum is offline  
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#28  

Captain Moosehead
 
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it takes about 40 man hours to run 1 rwr cable from the wingtip of the plane to the center of the jet. it takes 3 1/2 weeks just to install a 3rd radio into the aircraft and run all the ancillary wiring associated with it plus upgrade the software on all the computers on the aircraft that interact with it to work, and the new software is almost never backwards compatible with old software. so your spare parts have to get reprogrammed when you swap them jet to jet. most avionics upgrades aren't simply "drop in replacements"

from what i understand the radar package the usaf is going with will take well over a month to install alone. i really have to reiterate these upgrades aren't just swapping out one box for another. the 2 main obstacles for the strike eagle i personally see for the us air force right now are: 1 even with the larger generators we are rapidly reaching the point where the generators will simply not put out enough power to run everything at once anymore and 2 the ECS system will have a very difficult time coping with the cooling needs of an upgraded radar and EW suite. if you're talking about upgrading the ECS system you're talking about putting a jet down for at least a month. you avoid all this by buying an aircraft with a more powerful ecs package installed



boeing is rolling out f-15's and f-18's faster than lockheed is f-22's and f-35's

I wasn't suggesting it was a simple swap but an avionics upgrade is faster and cheaper than designing or redesigning the same aircraft to preform a mission (again stealth) that it wasn't designed to do. The whole project seems like a waste of money on behalf of Boeing that could be better spent on the strike eagle, super hornet or even the raptor since it's a sub contractor. And Boeing may be churning out F-15E's and F-18E/F/G's faster than the F-22 or F-35's but we aren't talking about the F-15E or the F18E/F/G. We are talking about the F-15SE - which is apparently more than a special CFT's that can hold two aim-9's and two aim-120's.
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:54 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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#29  

prometheum
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
I wasn't suggesting it was a simple swap but an avionics upgrade is faster and cheaper than designing or redesigning the same aircraft to preform a mission (again stealth) that it wasn't designed to do. The whole project seems like a waste of money on behalf of Boeing that could be better spent on the strike eagle, super hornet or even the raptor since it's a sub contractor. And Boeing may be churning out F-15E's and F-18E/F/G's faster than the F-22 or F-35's but we aren't talking about the F-15E or the F18E/F/G. We are talking about the F-15SE - which is apparently more than a special CFT's that can hold two aim-9's and two aim-120's.

the f-15se is a lot more than a stealthy version of the f-15e...the money was spent on the strike eagle and they came up with a slightly more aerodynamic aircraft, upgraded flight controls system, and an interrogated EW/radar suite and according to boeing it will cost roughly the same as the f-15k.

all i meant by boeing churning out f-15/18s faster than 22's and 35s is the OP stated boeing's fighter department is dead...it isn't. like another poster said earlier the market for 4.5 generation fighters is still hot. the f-35 is still a gamble, the f-18 and the f-15 are not. i'm almost certain if a buyer wanted to buy an f-15se today it would roll off the assembly line faster than an f-35...again this is not to compete against the f-35...this is a completely different market. i'm almost certain when its all said and done the price foreign nations are going to end up paying per f-35 is going to be somewhere in the $160 million neighborhood
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:00 PM prometheum is offline  
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