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Captain Moosehead
 
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Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
the f-15se is a lot more than a stealthy version of the f-15e...the money was spent on the strike eagle and they came up with a slightly more aerodynamic aircraft, upgraded flight controls system, and an interrogated EW/radar suite and according to boeing it will cost roughly the same as the f-15k.

all i meant by boeing churning out f-15/18s faster than 22's and 35s is the OP stated boeing's fighter department is dead...it isn't. like another poster said earlier the market for 4.5 generation fighters is still hot. the f-35 is still a gamble, the f-18 and the f-15 are not. i'm almost certain if a buyer wanted to buy an f-15se today it would roll off the assembly line faster than an f-35...again this is not to compete against the f-35...this is a completely different market. i'm almost certain when its all said and done the price foreign nations are going to end up paying per f-35 is going to be somewhere in the $160 million neighborhood

See I don't think it would. Production lines may be up for the F-15E and whatever export variants exist - but with a different skin, slightly different airframe and a few other differences, I imagine that if Boeing is just beginning to test the CFT launchers it is still several years before it is available to the market.

And I think $160 is a gross over estimation of the cost per unit for an F-35. Even the F-22 doesn't cost that much and they plan on producing several of F-35's. The most basic version, the F-35A, is the one most nations will buy (why do they need a variant that has vertical take off if they are never forward deployed; why do they need a carrier variant if they have no carriers) and it goes without saying it will be the cheapest. At $80 million it would be comparable to other 4.5 gen aircraft currently on the market and even increased by 25% if would cost as much as a F-15E. If anything is under inflated it is that a F-15SE will cost as much as the F-15K which essentially means all the fancy add on's, including the radar absorbent skin, are free. Even if it cost $120 million per an F-35, the F-35 would have an advantage as several nations are producing portions of the F-35 under license. I can't imagine what nation that would buy this aircraft also has an aviation industry capable of such an agreement with Boeing.

Even if we ignored market forces, the tacit endorsement of the U.S. is strong. The F-20 was designed to fulfill the foreign requirement for a light weight fighter in the same category as the F-16. The F-20 had some commonality with the F-5 that many nations were equipped and familiar with. The F-16 on the other hand was clearly the riskier option with fly by wire, side stick controls and so forth. However when the U.S. opted to release the F-16 to foriegn sales most nations who had been or would have been considering the F-20 decided that even an equal and slightly cheaper aircraft was not worth it because it was essentially a 20 year old air frame and if the U.S. wasn't willing to use it - why should any other nation.

I can only see the F-15SE ever being competitive if it were somehow an upgrade. Ditch the stealth materials, and pay whatever amount for the slanted vertical tails, avionics, cft's to be added on to existing F-15E's rather than purchase a whole new aircraft. But this isn't what the F-15SE that is being offered. I semi agree with the notion that this is Boeing's desperate bid to maintain relevancy having lost the JSF contract and only being a minor partner in the F-22 which is closing it's production lines.
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Old 03-26-2009, 03:27 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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afxacid
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
See I don't think it would. Production lines may be up for the F-15E and whatever export variants exist - but with a different skin, slightly different airframe and a few other differences, I imagine that if Boeing is just beginning to test the CFT launchers it is still several years before it is available to the market.

And I think $160 is a gross over estimation of the cost per unit for an F-35. Even the F-22 doesn't cost that much and they plan on producing several of F-35's. The most basic version, the F-35A, is the one most nations will buy (why do they need a variant that has vertical take off if they are never forward deployed; why do they need a carrier variant if they have no carriers) and it goes without saying it will be the cheapest. At $80 million it would be comparable to other 4.5 gen aircraft currently on the market and even increased by 25% if would cost as much as a F-15E. If anything is under inflated it is that a F-15SE will cost as much as the F-15K which essentially means all the fancy add on's, including the radar absorbent skin, are free. Even if it cost $120 million per an F-35, the F-35 would have an advantage as several nations are producing portions of the F-35 under license. I can't imagine what nation that would buy this aircraft also has an aviation industry capable of such an agreement with Boeing.

Even if we ignored market forces, the tacit endorsement of the U.S. is strong. The F-20 was designed to fulfill the foreign requirement for a light weight fighter in the same category as the F-16. The F-20 had some commonality with the F-5 that many nations were equipped and familiar with. The F-16 on the other hand was clearly the riskier option with fly by wire, side stick controls and so forth. However when the U.S. opted to release the F-16 to foriegn sales most nations who had been or would have been considering the F-20 decided that even an equal and slightly cheaper aircraft was not worth it because it was essentially a 20 year old air frame and if the U.S. wasn't willing to use it - why should any other nation.

I can only see the F-15SE ever being competitive if it were somehow an upgrade. Ditch the stealth materials, and pay whatever amount for the slanted vertical tails, avionics, cft's to be added on to existing F-15E's rather than purchase a whole new aircraft. But this isn't what the F-15SE that is being offered. I semi agree with the notion that this is Boeing's desperate bid to maintain relevancy having lost the JSF contract and only being a minor partner in the F-22 which is closing it's production lines.

USN will be the only force getting the f-35c carrier version

estimates at the moment put the f-35 between 60-80m; but everything depends on volume of orders from other countries (standard economics).

you also act as if boeing went ahead and spent the money/resources on designing this upgrade in a vacuum? i am assuming..but i find that highly dubious that they would go ahead with such a product upgrade without first consulting other partners/customers, would you not agree?

the 4.5gen market is still very hot. f-35 is still unproven and a ways off from serial production. not to mention once released, there will still be extra years tacked on for some countries waiting in line. that leaves a lot of time period to be filled.
Old 03-26-2009, 06:21 PM afxacid is offline  
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prometheum
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Moosehead View Post
See I don't think it would. Production lines may be up for the F-15E and whatever export variants exist - but with a different skin, slightly different airframe and a few other differences, I imagine that if Boeing is just beginning to test the CFT launchers it is still several years before it is available to the market.

And I think $160 is a gross over estimation of the cost per unit for an F-35. Even the F-22 doesn't cost that much and they plan on producing several of F-35's. The most basic version, the F-35A, is the one most nations will buy (why do they need a variant that has vertical take off if they are never forward deployed; why do they need a carrier variant if they have no carriers) and it goes without saying it will be the cheapest. At $80 million it would be comparable to other 4.5 gen aircraft currently on the market and even increased by 25% if would cost as much as a F-15E. If anything is under inflated it is that a F-15SE will cost as much as the F-15K which essentially means all the fancy add on's, including the radar absorbent skin, are free. Even if it cost $120 million per an F-35, the F-35 would have an advantage as several nations are producing portions of the F-35 under license. I can't imagine what nation that would buy this aircraft also has an aviation industry capable of such an agreement with Boeing.

Even if we ignored market forces, the tacit endorsement of the U.S. is strong. The F-20 was designed to fulfill the foreign requirement for a light weight fighter in the same category as the F-16. The F-20 had some commonality with the F-5 that many nations were equipped and familiar with. The F-16 on the other hand was clearly the riskier option with fly by wire, side stick controls and so forth. However when the U.S. opted to release the F-16 to foriegn sales most nations who had been or would have been considering the F-20 decided that even an equal and slightly cheaper aircraft was not worth it because it was essentially a 20 year old air frame and if the U.S. wasn't willing to use it - why should any other nation.

I can only see the F-15SE ever being competitive if it were somehow an upgrade. Ditch the stealth materials, and pay whatever amount for the slanted vertical tails, avionics, cft's to be added on to existing F-15E's rather than purchase a whole new aircraft. But this isn't what the F-15SE that is being offered. I semi agree with the notion that this is Boeing's desperate bid to maintain relevancy having lost the JSF contract and only being a minor partner in the F-22 which is closing it's production lines.

i don't think the f-15se has any special skin aside from some type of radar absorbent paint just like certain f-16cj's.

just how stealthy an exported aircraft can be is still going to be tightly controlled by the government. the article states that the f-15sg according to boeing has a frontal radar RCS of an f-35. which might not be that hard to believe. in flight the first inlet ramp (there are 3) is down pretty low and the bottom portion of the air intake gently slopes upward. so you end up not seeing much of the fan blades at all. they even went through the trouble of flushmounting the radio antennas.

again i'm not arguing how much an f-35 costs to build i'm sure its well under $100 million. buying an f-15 isn't like buying a car, its like buying a car, you also buy a support package which includes weapons, optional avionics packages, technical support, spare parts, etc. i'm pretty buying an f-35 is going to cost a foreign country $160ish per aircraft. which is no where near the cost of an f-22, 160 is still 10 less than conservative estimates of what the production cost of an f-22 is. and the article says the cft's can be manufactured under license by whoever is buying it.
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:33 PM prometheum is offline  
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Captain Moosehead
 
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Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
i don't think the f-15se has any special skin aside from some type of radar absorbent paint just like certain f-16cj's.

just how stealthy an exported aircraft can be is still going to be tightly controlled by the government. the article states that the f-15sg according to boeing has a frontal radar RCS of an f-35. which might not be that hard to believe. in flight the first inlet ramp (there are 3) is down pretty low and the bottom portion of the air intake gently slopes upward. so you end up not seeing much of the fan blades at all. they even went through the trouble of flushmounting the radio antennas.

again i'm not arguing how much an f-35 costs to build i'm sure its well under $100 million. buying an f-15 isn't like buying a car, its like buying a car, you also buy a support package which includes weapons, optional avionics packages, technical support, spare parts, etc. i'm pretty buying an f-35 is going to cost a foreign country $160ish per aircraft. which is no where near the cost of an f-22, 160 is still 10 less than conservative estimates of what the production cost of an f-22 is. and the article says the cft's can be manufactured under license by whoever is buying it.

First I was under the impression that they used more composites int he F-15SE. Second buy an F-15 is exactly like buying a car (except one costs an ass load more - but the budget is also an ass load more). There are hidden costs in a car as well, maintenance, spare parts, I suppose if you companies offered swaping out the interior, and that sort of thing. Together I don't see it doubling the cost of the F-35 which again, is partly deferred by some domestic production. The fly away cost will certainly be higher than $80 million but I sincerely question if the F-15SE at $100 million is the fly away cost when they sold the F-15K's for the same price.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:48 PM Captain Moosehead is offline  
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drewxhawaii
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is it the F35 that allows the pilot to "see through" the nose of the plane for a 360° field of vision?

Old 04-02-2009, 03:12 AM drewxhawaii is offline  
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afxacid
 
Old 04-02-2009, 03:45 PM afxacid is offline  
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prometheum
 
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thats nothing new 4/4.5 gen fighters including the f-15 have been flying with aesa's for years

now this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELETsvJZwvI
is bad ass
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:18 AM prometheum is offline  
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afxacid
 
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thats nothing new 4/4.5 gen fighters including the f-15 have been flying with aesa's for years

now this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELETsvJZwvI
is bad ass

i dont think current 4th gen fighters (upgraded with aesa) really have THAT kind of performance, do they? that is pretty

can you confirm they are anywhere NEAR that fast at detect/vector-track as the f-35 an-apg-81 in the video?
Old 04-14-2009, 05:34 PM afxacid is offline  
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prometheum
 
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i dont think current 4th gen fighters (upgraded with aesa) really have THAT kind of performance, do they? that is pretty

can you confirm they are anywhere NEAR that fast at detect/vector-track as the f-35 an-apg-81 in the video?

only a handful of f-15c's have an AESA; the pilots thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread in comparison to apg-63v1 which from the maintenance standpoint is worlds better than the original 63 and 70.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:53 AM prometheum is offline  
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