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BobSutan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalMocking View Post
it seems so weirdly cultish but the overall fitness levels from those participating seem pretty crazy

That's because of the intensity involved. One of the things Cosgrove pointed out in that above quote is that the routines are all over the place. Depending on what side of teh fence you're on it's either a good thing or a detriment. From a cross-training perspective it's incredible. You don't have a chance to plateau or get in a rut. And it really keeps things fresh so you don't get into a mental rut that leads to boredom or frustration. I think that aspect alone is a credit to CF and in part is what lends to the frenzied dogmatic approach a lot of participants bring to the table.

As a long time fitness enthusiast, CF didn't appeal to me at first. On paper it just doesn't make sense. In practice, wow. The proof is in the pudding. Could it be guided to take advantage of better synergy? You betcha! Does it do an excellent job and developing total body fitness as it's currently practiced? Absolutely. Like anything in life there is room for improvement. However, CF has come a long way since I was first exposed to it and today it's a solid system. Those who follow it for any serious length of time (about 6 months from what I've seen) will reach athlete level fitness levels.
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:54 AM BobSutan is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSutan View Post

As a long time fitness enthusiast, CF didn't appeal to me at first.

What the Fuck? Obviously, you've seen the light, but on paper, they start out with Deadlifts, squats, bench press, overhead presses, snatches, jerks. Practically every single compound movement you can think of.

Also researching it you know they came up with the 300 workout. Also an amazing workout to test your "manhood".

I just can't see how anyone who's a fitness enthusiast wouldn't think this would work even just on paper.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:03 PM Coqui is offline  
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But the game aspect of the workouts makes Crossfit very fun, challenging, goal-oriented, and motivating.

This is where you lost me. Crossfit, to me, has no goal. The ultimate goal is the become a better athlete, but how do you measure that by the means that they give you? Every time you work out you're doing something different.

But do you know what athletes, powerlifters, and olympic lifters alike share? Repetition and a clear goal. A powerlifter wants to get his big 3 total to a certain point, which means always working to get that bench, deadlift, or squat higher. Olympic lifters always want to try and become the strongest and most explosive they can. Athletes want a specific skillset to make them the best in their game. A baseball player isn't going to do crossfit to make himself better at hitting a ball, and a football player isn't going to be able to catch a football any better with it either. You see where I'm going with this.

Crossfit people just want to do a whole bunch of random exercises that don't necessarily translate back to what they're going for.

Certainly Crossfit offers a great program for that kind of person who is or wants to be in great shape. But there is no real routine that gets them to be motivated to try and reach a specific goal other than being "fit." If that's all you're going for, that's fine. But otherwise, there's not really a goal in the program.

Oh, and a lot of the guys are complete tools, too. You get that condescending "I do Crossfit (which means I'm awesome" kind of vibe from a lot of those people. Even the people that the leader signed on to do the training in the program really don't like him, either. But so long as you don't have that attitude, I don't mind.
Old 06-29-2009, 01:23 PM mainbrotha is offline  
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BobSutan
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
What the Fuck? Obviously, you've seen the light, but on paper, they start out with Deadlifts, squats, bench press, overhead presses, snatches, jerks. Practically every single compound movement you can think of.

Also researching it you know they came up with the 300 workout. Also an amazing workout to test your "manhood".

I just can't see how anyone who's a fitness enthusiast wouldn't think this would work even just on paper.

When I was first exposed to it there was a lot of people getting hurt, not much scalability, and it's when the rhabdomyolysis issues were more common. I don't think Brand X even existed back then. However, things have come a long way since then and that's why I gave it another look. Damn glad I did.

As for the cult-like status that was mentioned earlier I think people see the camaraderie it builds and simply misunderstand it since it's so unusual for camaraderie to develop in that kind of environment. Personally I think that's another strong selling point. This article kinda touches on that:

http://www.military.com/military-fit...rarely-routine


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Originally Posted by mainbrotha View Post
This is where you lost me. Crossfit, to me, has no goal. The ultimate goal is the become a better athlete, but how do you measure that by the means that they give you? Every time you work out you're doing something different.

But do you know what athletes, powerlifters, and olympic lifters alike share? Repetition and a clear goal. A powerlifter wants to get his big 3 total to a certain point, which means always working to get that bench, deadlift, or squat higher. Olympic lifters always want to try and become the strongest and most explosive they can. Athletes want a specific skillset to make them the best in their game. A baseball player isn't going to do crossfit to make himself better at hitting a ball, and a football player isn't going to be able to catch a football any better with it either. You see where I'm going with this.

Every few weeks the crossfit total comes around. That's your yardstick for progress. Also, you're missing the point of why people do CF. It's not to replace the specialized training athletes do, it's to round out everything else that gets missed during skill/specialization training. This quote sums up this point perfectly, "We do what you do almost as well as you, you can't do our stuff at all, and we do what neither of us do better than you can". -- Coach Glassman

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Originally Posted by mainbrotha View Post
Crossfit people just want to do a whole bunch of random exercises that don't necessarily translate back to what they're going for.

You missed the boat on this one. I suggest reading some of the literature out there as to the goals and purpose of Crossfit. It's intended to be diverse and to be a fully rounded program with no specific goal in the sense you're referring to. The goal, as you put it below, is "fit", but equally well in all 10 zones unlike any other fitness regimen out there.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-how.html

This last article really nails down what I'm trying to say: CF is a great total body system. IF you want to excel at a specific area then you're still going to need specialized training to reach whatever goal you may have:

http://ezinearticles.com/?CrossFit--...me?&id=2394658

I mentioned it before, and I agreed with the negatives with that article and that's why I didn't partake back when I first heard about CF. Things have changed. I don't know when that article was written, but I suspect it was before Brand X came on the scene and the powers that be put more emphasis on form & safety. Once upon a time CF was dangerous, especially for the newbie. That's no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by mainbrotha View Post
Certainly Crossfit offers a great program for that kind of person who is or wants to be in great shape. But there is no real routine that gets them to be motivated to try and reach a specific goal other than being "fit." If that's all you're going for, that's fine. But otherwise, there's not really a goal in the program.

Oh, and a lot of the guys are complete tools, too. You get that condescending "I do Crossfit (which means I'm awesome" kind of vibe from a lot of those people. Even the people that the leader signed on to do the training in the program really don't like him, either. But so long as you don't have that attitude, I don't mind.

I have NEVER met anyone with this attitude you speak of. However, CF is popular with the MMA-wannabe crowd, so maybe that's more along the lines of what you experienced?
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:44 PM BobSutan is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainbrotha View Post
Certainly Crossfit offers a great program for that kind of person who is or wants to be in great shape. But there is no real routine that gets them to be motivated to try and reach a specific goal other than being "fit." If that's all you're going for, that's fine. But otherwise, there's not really a goal in the program.

I think the point you're missing from it is that it makes you a better athlete. How can you measure it?

Your 40 time is faster. You're able to lift someone up easier. You can throw something faster/harder.

Motivation will be getting stronger. They do eventuall get around to the same lifts as previously. And wouldn't making sure the person training isn't bored be a nice motivation? So mixing up the routines works.

Crossfit is the means to make whatever athletic thing you do better.

Now, I personally don't do this workout, but I can tell it would kick people's asses and get them into shape.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:48 PM Coqui is offline  
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BobSutan
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Found a nice summation of all the "Nasty Girls" workouts:

http://www.colinmcnulty.com/blog/200...uts-the-girls/
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:13 PM BobSutan is offline  
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I feel like if I try to make any counter arguments here, I won't get far. But I'll just leave it at the point that a lot of what I've read from the guys at the Strength & Power section at sherdog.net (because I trust those guys a lot), I've heard a lot of mixed reviews about the routines and the people of crossfit.

On the other hand, there are some strong people in cf, too.
Old 06-29-2009, 04:05 PM mainbrotha is offline  
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This is where you lost me. Crossfit, to me, has no goal. The ultimate goal is the become a better athlete, but how do you measure that by the means that they give you? Every time you work out you're doing something different.

But do you know what athletes, powerlifters, and olympic lifters alike share? Repetition and a clear goal. A powerlifter wants to get his big 3 total to a certain point, which means always working to get that bench, deadlift, or squat higher. Olympic lifters always want to try and become the strongest and most explosive they can. Athletes want a specific skillset to make them the best in their game. A baseball player isn't going to do crossfit to make himself better at hitting a ball, and a football player isn't going to be able to catch a football any better with it either. You see where I'm going with this.

Crossfit people just want to do a whole bunch of random exercises that don't necessarily translate back to what they're going for.

Certainly Crossfit offers a great program for that kind of person who is or wants to be in great shape. But there is no real routine that gets them to be motivated to try and reach a specific goal other than being "fit." If that's all you're going for, that's fine. But otherwise, there's not really a goal in the program.

Oh, and a lot of the guys are complete tools, too. You get that condescending "I do Crossfit (which means I'm awesome" kind of vibe from a lot of those people. Even the people that the leader signed on to do the training in the program really don't like him, either. But so long as you don't have that attitude, I don't mind.



True, there is a TON of variety to the workouts. However, following the program for a few months, you'll see that certain workouts are in fact repeated. For example, today's WOD(Workout of the Day) is the crossfit total:

1RM Squat, Overhead Press, and Deadlift

The goal is to be stronger than you were the last time you did that workout, in this case it was a month ago, and then a month before that. In that way, it's highly motivating because you always want to perform better than you did the last time you did that workout, whereas in bodybuilding you'll often hit a plateau that cannot always be surpassed easily.

Even for the workouts that you've never done, it's highly challenging because you can either try to set a time to beat (or a weight to reach), or compare times with athletes who you want to beat and then try and do it.

When you just start out though, yeah, it does kinda feel like you're doing a 'bunch of random stuff' every day. But then again, if I only did powerlifting/weightlifting lifts and nothing else, I'd probably only be good at those and not a lot else.

I do agree with you about some of the participants' attitudes though. Many feel a sense of elitism. I also feel that this is because the results you do get from the program are so clear, you come to basically despise anything that the pop-fitness industry promotes, including other programs or routines designed to make money regardless of results. I'm not saying that this arrogance or elitist attitude is OK, but when you look at the fitness level of those who do Crossfit vs. most others in a typical gym, you can kinda see the reason for those attitudes.
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:11 PM Chomp is offline  
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I feel like if I try to make any counter arguments here, I won't get far. But I'll just leave it at the point that a lot of what I've read from the guys at the Strength & Power section at sherdog.net (because I trust those guys a lot), I've heard a lot of mixed reviews about the routines and the people of crossfit.

On the other hand, there are some strong people in cf, too.

I've seen your posts in this forum and I respect the kind of training you do (powerlifting/olympic lifts as a foundation from what I can tell). I will say that I was a huge critic of Crossfit (my brother started doing it first) and now I've come to see what a benefit it is. That said, I haven't done it longterm, but everything is pointing to the longer you do it, the stronger, healthier, more powerfull you become.

As a strong guy based on your stats, you might appreciate the Crossfit workout this guy did - he's a Strongman competitor.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 06-29-2009, 04:17 PM Chomp is offline  
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I used to body build. I once weighed 200lbs at 4% body fat. I've always been able to pack on the beef rather easily. Where I've had issues my whole life is dropping body fat. And I disagree that it won't bulk you up. The bulk of the workouts since I've been doing it have been some form of Olympic lifts--clean & jerk, squats, deadlifts, etc. These are the big boys of weight training. If you want to get big, those are what you're going to do. Isolation exercises are largely a waste unless you're nursing an injury or have special goals in mind like traditional body building. For Joe Schmoe I'm a big fan of Alwyne Cosgrove and Lou Schuler's school of though to stay off the machines, use compound movements, and in doing so you don't need isolation exercises for the most part since EVERYTHING gets worked already with the big movers.
Still, gaining 20+ lbs of muscle in 3 months is outstanding even if you're doing a mass-centric routine, which Crossfit admittedly is not. I can see it maybe happening if you used to be big and are reaching an old set point, but still...pretty outrageous numbers. 2 lbs of muscle a week is unbelievably good for anybody, much less an older guy.

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Actually no. Read the literature. Form is critical in all but a few things. For example, kipping pull-ups are a form of cheating because you use lots of momentum. In the workouts of the day that call for them they stipulate doing an alternative if you're not ready because they do put extra stress on the shoulders. That's just one such example. The Brand X workouts add a lot more scalability and variety as well for those that are new to CF.
From the stuff I've read about Crossfit, "cheating" in your form was perfectly acceptable to get the weight up. Using leg drive on shoulder presses, all that stuff. Nothing wrong with that approach as far as fitness goes, just different goals.

The Crossfit gym here is overrun with idiots who have no technique and are doing it because it's trendy, but I don't expect that to be universal.
Old 06-29-2009, 04:55 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I feel like if I try to make any counter arguments here, I won't get far. But I'll just leave it at the point that a lot of what I've read from the guys at the Strength & Power section at sherdog.net (because I trust those guys a lot), I've heard a lot of mixed reviews about the routines and the people of crossfit.

On the other hand, there are some strong people in cf, too.

Not really an argument. Your goals would not benefit from Crossfit. Chances are, it won't fit the goals set by the Strength and Power section either. The goal of Crossfit is overall fitness as you said. It's not getting a 1200+ combined lift.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:01 PM Coqui is offline  
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Bob, why no picture of you at 4% bodyfat, 200lbs?
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:02 PM fapling is offline  
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wish i could edit, but i can't, here's 200lbs @ 9% body fat for reference: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/s...27&postcount=9
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:28 PM fapling is offline  
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Still, gaining 20+ lbs of muscle in 3 months is outstanding even if you're doing a mass-centric routine, which Crossfit admittedly is not. I can see it maybe happening if you used to be big and are reaching an old set point, but still...pretty outrageous numbers. 2 lbs of muscle a week is unbelievably good for anybody, much less an older guy.

The body fat estimate isn't exact (as if they ever are). I don't think I put on that much mass, but guys are work say it's plausible seeing how much more solid I am now. Dropped about 4" off my waist so I know I was losing fat. My legs are getting back to tree trunk status and my arms are back up around 16.5-17". I'm nowhere near as big & cut as I was when I was body building, but overall I'm in much better shape than I was a few months ago. I don't think I'll ever get back to 200 @ 4%, nor would I want to. The diet I was on back then was stupid hard to stick with and I like my food. I'd be happy with 185 @ <20%. One last thing, I did my bf test again last night and it came out to a 14% loss. So 14-16% loss seems to be the stable difference.


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From the stuff I've read about Crossfit, "cheating" in your form was perfectly acceptable to get the weight up. Using leg drive on shoulder presses, all that stuff. Nothing wrong with that approach as far as fitness goes, just different goals.

I do see that in some of the routines, but those are by design. For example, push presses are shoulder presses where you pop with your legs for momentum and power. Some people see that and think "he's cheating on his shoulder press". The truth is I'm not doing shoulder presses and what I'm working during this movement is something different than Joe Schmoe doing regular SPs. IMO it's a big difference.


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Bob, why no picture of you at 4% bodyfat, 200lbs?

We're talking 1995. Didn't have a digital camera back then.
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:04 AM BobSutan is offline  
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Well I had the first session last night and let me tell you... a 200m run, 15-12-9 squat/pushup/ring pull up, 200m run in 9 minutes is EXTREMELY humbling.

I was one of 3 newbies taking this intro course. I'm pretty sure I'll be the only one at the next class. I'd love to be proven wrong.

For my goals, becoming a police officer and/or going in the military, this seems to fit the bill quite well. Having no prior history of sports injury and my age (23) probably lowers my chance of future injury.

For the record, one of the first things that came up in our class was good form vs. bad form. This is what we were told.

You will never use unsafe form.
Form can be sacrificed to a degree to complete reps.
If a person does 20 squats and 5 of them are out of form, but 3 months later all 20 of them are in form, did that person get stronger? Yes.

In a nutshell of course.

--Andy
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