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My last gun i "need" to purchase,rifle this time.

That doesn't mean it will be the last i purchase tho.
I just put my Mossberg 500SPX in layaway and ill have it out next week,that leaves me with only a rifle as a gun i dont have and do need.

This will be a range gun and a "The USA gets invaded rifle" its more about spray and pray than sniping.But decent accuracy is wanted for range duty and effectivness.Optics not so important as long as i can hit COM at 100 yards.

20 years ago i owned an AK47,not much to say here about these guns.I know the caliber rather well and the gun well.Im not up to speed on who and how they are being made these days.
Prices locally are $550 and ammo $30 a 100 without even looking for deals.

Next is a M4/AR15 .223 wich ive seen locally $700+ and up and good deals on used guns soon once this Obama scare lets up.Personally i dislike .223 the round,the gun i have no issues with as reliability is good since this gun has been around a good 40 years now.
The .223 lack penetration and weight,price same as AK ammo.

.308 in the M4 AR style guns looks like it would be my favorite option except price may be its downfall.The caliber kicks ass and i LOVE that,but the price is hitting close to 2x the price of the others ammo.

I dont have the experience to build my own,but i bet i could with the internet,hell the internet can do everything.Speaking of that i wonder if the CIA forgot to just google "where is Osama" as i bet google knows the answer!

Now price,$500-$750 i know its low,but i dont need a loaded gun or new.Used i can get a .223 if i look hard enough.$500 get me an AK all day long.
.308 is not gonna be easy,i may need to build that one.That would also allow me to pay more as i can buy parts over time.

The way i rank it is like this:
1. 308 is my first choice,the round and accuracy kicks ass.Price is gonna bleed me.
2. AK boring,but does it all and does it well.
3. .223 AR/M4 Not happy with the ammo,but its cheap and easiest of all to find.Penetration sucks compared to the rest.

Please dont look at this as what gun is best for you,look at my needs and try and figure out whats best for MY needs.I wont be dumping major rounds at the range every time i go,i have many guns to shoot so ammo price isnt gonna kill me,just sting a bit.
Old 12-26-2009, 06:18 PM StarDeath13 is offline  
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If you want a dependable spray and pray weapon, you really can't get any better than an AK. 70 trillion asian people can't be wrong. And also the 4 trillion non-asians.
The universe could very well have been created 10,000 years ago (or 100 years ago, for that matter). - Mike27
Old 12-27-2009, 01:10 PM Sarcasmo is offline  
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While this is true,it wouldn't hurt to have something better if it fits.
Unless The world end as we know it,it will be my main survival weapon of high caliber.Until then it will be mainly a range/fun gun as i have guns for everything else.

I know i wouldn't put a scope on it,but a red dot with 2x magnification could be useful.But id worry it would slow my target acquisition time down and after the first shot make it hard to get back on site.With iron sights i can at least get close with somewhat of a rapid fire and still use the sights.

The .223 type gun will be a hard sell to me,but how about the .308? Will costs and ammo prices make it not so practical?

I just rechecked my local fun shops monthly add and they have AK's at $469,i guess its gonna be hard to argue with that.
Old 12-27-2009, 03:53 PM StarDeath13 is offline  
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For reference the American military as well as Israelis have been successfully penetrating flesh with the 223 for 40 years now.

If cost of the rifle is really an issue, then AK is your real only option. AR10's or M1A's run over $1500. Hell my AR is now sitting at $1700 with out any fancy shit on it, but I have really good parts in it.
If you do somehow decide to go with an AR platform, I built mine in about 10 minutes watching a youtube video. They are fucking STUPID EASY to put together.

After seeing AK's in action, that I owned personally and that I saw used in Iraq, I will NEVER EVER own an AK that my life will depend on. EVER!

The AK I owned was a Yugo, and I got it a few years back for around $350. It was a pile of horse shit. I'm a Marine and know how to care for my weapons. This fucker was clean and jammed a lot, misfed off the magazine a lot, and in fact the most interesting failure was a round actually was mis-stripped off the magazine and rolled back over the bolt and was rattling around with the spring in the back of the upper receiver. From what I understand though, if you can get your hands on a Chinese or Russian AK then you will have a good AK. Now know this. Reseller mostly know how much these are worth and they will sell for a premium. Approx $1000 is what I've seen them for. There are a few state side mfg'ers also and they make some pretty good ones, but again, theyre more expensive.

Now conversely, my original AR15 was a Bushmaster and it was also fairly unreliable. And its one of the less expensive brands. I know a lot of folks get decent performance from Bushmaster but I was looking for something more reliable. And my Bushmaster couldn't fire Wolf ammo. And a weapon that cant fire every ammo brand is pretty worthless IMO if it comes down to it. Especially for America invaded type of situation.
"Hey man you got any ammo? I cant shoot brand X Y and Z but do you have any brand A or B, those do great out of my weapon"
So that motivated me to get a better gun, which I have now.

.308 is a great round. The military after calling the m14 a failure as a standard infantry weapon, went ahead and continued to use it in a sniper roll because it has greater range than and m16.
So if youre saying youre not going to be accurately firing at great distance and cost is an issue, just take 308 out of the picture. The M1A is a great weapon, but it has a different purpose than what you are after.
Plus its heavy and so is its ammo. If youre looking to be SHTF walking around imagine carrying an approx 11lb rifle (empty) with ammo that weighs almost twice as much as 223, youre going to get tired. Believe me you will, if you walk any kind of distance, get tired of having this fucking weight around your shoulders. Where as the AR will weigh 6 pounds and you can carry double the ammo for the same weight or the same ammo for half the weight. Given your use for this gun, I would say the 308 kind of eliminates itself by its qualities and capabilities. Sure its great but not really fitting your needs.

So after all that IMO it would seem your choices are AR15 or AK. And your mind seems to be made up already so probably no one can convince you other wise. For me, after seeing the two options in action, I'll pick AR15 all day every day and twice on Sundays.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

And the age old debate of AR vs AK will never be answered by anyone but the end user. For me I love the AR. Fuck an AK. For you, you might love the AK and fuck an AR.

If you are interested you could take a look at 6.5 or 6.8 rounds. They have some pretty interesting ballistics and at some point will probably replace the 556

Last edited by Caelum; 12-28-2009 at 08:38 AM..
Old 12-28-2009, 08:21 AM Caelum is offline  
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Very in depth and interesting views,ty for all the effort.
I may sound closed minded,but im actually not or try and not be.My dislike of the AR platform is the round as .223 doesn't penetrate as well with plain ole FMJ.
And to be honest ive never even held or fired an AR,so i do owe it at least a chance before saying no.
Ak's can be made god knows where and from god knows what and sold at a high price.But i do have a great reputable dealer so i can somewhat trust they wont sell me junk on purpose.
The .308 intrigues me as to its ballistics,but everything else about the gun and platform may be wrong for me at this time.My only place to shoot has a max range of 100 yards,fine for an AK/AR but really wont work the .308 much.
And then cost,and just getting my foot in the door with a .308 will be the most expensive.Shooting it will be 2x as much since i don't reload.

One thing ive found is i don't like farkles and do-dads,i like plain old bare essentials except for a simple extra sight upgrade.
Ive also grown up enough and enough time has passed to say i think the AR platform has bypassed the AK platform in reliability and especially quality.

This is my local guns stores flyer for this month,sadly the AR and .308 offerings aren't the best prices ive seen.
I have a month or 2 to think this purchase fully threw,but im not so sure i want to build my first AR if i go that way.Granted i bet i could build a 1911 from parts if i had enough gun smith tools all except the coatings and finish.

I think i need goals,thats how i pick my handguns at least.
1. Lite and small to mid sized since max range isn't an issue.That rules the .308 out now,but if i want it later i can always do that.isn't like you can have to many guns right? lol
2.Low priced and readily available ammo.
3.While not necessary a warranty wouldn't be so bad to have,no AK will have that.
4.I don't stock much ammo,maybe 300-400 rounds per gun.I would have more saved for this gun.But .223 would be easier to find at end of world times reach the USA.
5.I need quality and reliability at a cheapish price,This may be pushing the AR platform.
But i can find online guides on how to build and find and buy parts.

For a .223 can you name a few companies that make basic small to mid sized AR's that are low priced and reliable? Dont they make these in 7.62x39?
S&W seem to have decently priced basic models,im sure i can find good deals on used ones as it seems the Obama buying spree is about to start putting used guns back into the market.
Old 12-28-2009, 06:56 PM StarDeath13 is offline  
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I'd suggest heading over to and browsing for a while. That should take care of your questions.
Best Regards,
Old 12-29-2009, 09:03 PM 28_days is offline  
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Agreed. has such a wealth of knowledge its silly.

But to answer the question more specifically, they do make 762 uppers for AR's. Just to further my push for the AR platform, you can use the same lower receiver for i think 4 or 5 different calibers. 5.56, 7.62, 5.45, 6.5, 6.8. There's probably more but I cant think of them.
But all you need do is have different uppers assemblies, bolts, and magazines for each caliber and you're good. Not that you would need to in a SHTF situation, but before that situation arises you have options and versatility with the AR platform that just isnt there with the AK. Of course the cost of each of those upper assemblies bolt and mags are themselves the cost of a cheap WASR AK.

5.45 is SUPER fucking cheap too. Was looking at some ammo prices yesterday $170 for 750 rounds. That would only get you 400 of some pretty decent 5.56.

You can get a 5.45 AK for around 460 I think.

Head over to m4carbine for sure and do some reading. There is a chart that has several manufacturers on there and how they fall in line with the government standard. The chart in and of itself isn't the most important part. Its the pieces that make up the chart. The individual pieces of the rifle that are and are not in government spec. If certain things aren't important to you or they seem like "well that will never fucking break" then don't worry about it missing off a rifle you might find referenced on the chart.
Old 12-30-2009, 06:36 AM Caelum is offline  
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I'm a big fan of the AR platform obviously. But I acknowledge that it's not the solution to everyone's problem. But in my personal opinion, if you have around 500 or 600 saved, save enough to buy a BCM rifle, around 1000 to 1100 before you make the decision to drop anything on either platform. And if you choose to get an AK you can either get a good one or you can get some ammo to shoot with the cheap one.
The guys at m4carbine will tell you to save for a good one, a BMC or LMT or DD. They are great rifles. Better than what you'll buy in the store for just a little more than what you'd pay in the store. And less than you'd pay from the flier you linked.

If you're military or know anyone who is military you can pick this up for $799 with their mil discount.
Or this one for $960

There are tons of options out there for the AR and the chart will steer you in the right direction.

7.62 uppered AR

5.45 uppered AR
Old 12-30-2009, 06:57 AM Caelum is offline  
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:56 AM Copejunkie is offline  
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Originally Posted by Copejunkie View Post

speaking as a nagant owner, thats incredibly accurate
Old 12-31-2009, 07:07 AM chuckybob is offline  
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Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
speaking as a nagant owner, thats incredibly accurate

lmao.. a buddy of mine has one. I actually really enjoy shooting it... i guess i need to get me one
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Old 12-31-2009, 07:32 AM Copejunkie is offline  
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Saiga in .308. Best bang for the buck/reliability there is right now for a AK without having to look all over for one! And yes Yugo's suck but then again they are made in China so really what did you expect!?

PS: You can buy Brown Bear ammo at a much lower cost then regular ammo for range trips and even run really old surplus when its on sale as well as this thing will feed anything!
Old 01-01-2010, 07:20 AM Tazman0072 is offline  
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The Saiga sounds interesting,i know i was wanting one in 12 gauge before i bought my 500SPX.

My needs may be changing a bit tho,i just put a M&P 15-22 rifle in layaway and sold my S&W .22a pistol.
I think this will fulfill my 100 yards and under fun needs which would have been filled by an AK.
Also this will allow me to buy more expensive ammo if im going more for accuracy over spray and pay.But ill just have to see how i feel about things once i have the 15-22 and put a decent red dot on it.
Old 01-07-2010, 10:00 PM StarDeath13 is offline  
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D15 > LS1
Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
speaking as a nagant owner, thats incredibly accurate

[M]arried to SlickChicFallen (12k n00b)
Old 01-16-2010, 12:19 PM f00ker is offline  
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