General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
dio
 
dio's Avatar
 
The scientific method fails when put into practice with Capitalism.

I see the scientific method as one of those things that looks GREAT on paper. You know much how on paper communism looks great, even democracy looks great. But when you come to really pay attention to what is occurring when we try to put these systems into practice, they just don't quite pan out as gloriously.

This isn't even the fault of the scientific method itself, the scientific method, despite having a few missing components, is a very well put together thought structure. It's popularity, like anythings popularity of it's time, is no fluke. But unfortunately when the scientific method is put into practice it hits one component which it did not foresee, which considerably reduces it's value. That one component being what would happen when the scientific is mixed with capitalism.

In a perfect world we would have a mass team of very intelligent, unbiased, "objective" scientists. They would be allotted a certain amount of funding to go explore any possibility on equal grounds. One piece of evidence, when found, would be presented as such, one possible truth among thousands, those other possibilities are not yet explored, but immediately next on the list to explore. This would be a continually rolling research institution that thoroughly investigates the validity and truth behind anything, that any human finds, so as to present to the rest of humanity a clearer, more objective truth.

That is in your ideal perfect world. But that isn't where we live.

Let me explain this to you by telling you a story of my past. Probably one of the main things that made me break away from mainstream thought never to fully trust it again. This story is about acne. I was a very bad case of acne from ages 14 to around 23. Allow whatever images you get in your mind to come up, they may be fairly accurate. Like many people who have a story of long-running bad acne, I went through the typical trials. Try over-the-counter treatments, have that fail. Go to the dermatologist, try prescription treatment, have that fail. Go to dermatologist again, try even more serious treatment, have that fail. Go to a more "Well-Respected, Higher Up" dermatologist, try there treatment have that fail. My list of chemicals, and brand-name synthetic acne treatments is as long as any person who would of gone through a similar thing. Year after year went buy, doctors telling me it is hormones, it clears up around the end of puberty. Age 18 rolls around, acne still just as bad. Doctors say takes longer for hormones to settle down in some people, try this prescription treatment in the meantime. Ok, age 21 rolls around, acne still just as bad.

What do you do when you have exhausted everything that is coming out of the most 'prestigious' doctors and institutions, with no improvement in your medical condition? Well, you go somewhere else. You take it upon yourself to figure out what the hell is going on and how do you fix it. Thus began my exploration into 'everything else'.

Long story short, my issue was dependent purely on diet. Interestingly, once discovering this, and looking into it, I found out that anyone who has thoroughly explored the possibility that diet is the cause of their skin problems also found it was dependent purely on diet.

This was a real shocker to me, because all through my teenage life doctors would tell me that "there is no conclusive link between diet and acne". That "it has not been proven diet causes acne". So following the advices of what were very 'well-respected' 'traditional' 'mainstream' doctors, I never really thought to fully explore the diet acne connection. I mean, it was not conclusively proven? So why think about it? My doctor will keep up to date on the latest research, and of course research and constantly being done and they will find a solution, and my doctor will inform me.

Well I don't know the current state of advice coming from 'well-respected' 'traditional' 'mainstream' doctors right now. Perhaps they have updated. BUT the last time I went to one such doctor was in 2010, where I asked him about acne, and he still, in the year 2010, repeated "The link between diet and acne is not conclusive".

Really? Not conclusive? I have discovered, through personal trials of my own that acne is actually 100% dependent on diet, that is actually the #1 controlling factor of skin blemishes. Then from partaking in online communities about acne, I discovered anyone who went to great lengths to personally explore the diet acne connection also found out that acne is 100% dependent on diet. How great of lengths did they explore? If you want to know ask me I can explain.

But with my personal experience, and now knowing the personal experience of countless other people online who discovered acne was 100% dependent on diet. I decided to look into the scientific research linking diet to acne. At the time, I could only find 2 not very good studies on the subject. One of them was a study exploring only chocolate as a cause. Another wasn't even a study but some report from some scientists who noted that indigineous tribes did not have acne and they suspect it was from diet. As of last year when I last looked, that was the state of 'clinical acne diet' research, the kind of research that lets doctors say "There is clinical evidence, this is fact". When the 'well-respected' doctors said "Their is no conclusive link between diet and acne", the little tidbit they left out was, there hasn't actually been attempt to explore a link, and no one is attempting to explore it.

Now, acne is not a new thing, it's been in the medical journals for over 40 years atleast, there are studies atleast 40 years old looking into it. Why in ALL this time was there never a thorough study done on a link between diet and acne? Why? I mean it's not hard, get 10 people, get them to stay in a hospital for 2 weeks eating only vegetables and light protein, that wouldn't even be very expensive. Why has it not been done? The notion that acne is dependent on diet is not absurd. Actually I think that is the first common sense response most parents have to acne. But the opinion of the 'educated' reading from clinical research made this myth of 'diet does not affect acne' because, there existed no real clinical research to say such a thing at the time.

I personally think avoiding the most 'OBVIOUS' 'COMMON SENSE' study to be done on a health issue for so long, when so many kids are suffering, is really kind of fucked up. How can that study not be done?

Well here we come to my prime example about how the scientific method fails when put in practice because it is being mixed with CAPITALISM.

What company in their right mind is going to evidence to you that to correct your health issue you should eat a lighter diet with lesser amounts of certain items, when instead that company can just evidence to you that you should consume their synthetic patented treatment. Well in all these years thats what the companies have done. We have dozens of synthetic patented acne treatments and hundreds of well funded clinical studies coming from respected sources covering all these acne treatments. All the while the funding going towards studies concerning diet and acne treatments is really non-existent. Just a quick google search and the only new thing I spotted that stood out was this http://www.acnehelp.org.uk/papers/Commentary.pdf a letter from an MD declaring that harvard needs to do more research into diet acne links based on the very minimal amount of data that has been gathered in the past about diet acne connection.

Some people for whatever reason may want to label this as 'conspiratorial'. I don't think this is so much of a conspiracy as it is more just a side-effect of capitalism. If clinical research costs money, and the companies funding the research are capitalist companies, then typically they want a return on their invested money. There is very little money in evidencing that acne is dependent purely on diet, because then you have nothing to sell. So investing money in THAT study is poor business practice. Instead investing money in patented synthetic treatments, and clinical studies proving those treatments makes millions. So that is what is done in practice.

That is a very specific example of why the scientific method is currently failing to do it's job properly because of capitalism. Scientific method is corrupted by capitalism. If not EVERY possibility is being explored equally, on equal grounds, then how can you trust science to be presenting to us 'truth', more specifically 'truth' behind medical treatments. Medical research is not done on equal grounds, every possibility is not explored. Only the possibilities that make back lots of money are thoroughly explored. Saying "I Follow Scientific Medical Research" is not equivalent to saying "I am following that which is most true", rather saying "I follow Scientific Medical Research" is equivalent to saying "I follow that which got the most money". Thats it. "I follow that which got the most money". And unfortunately in the world of medicine 'that which gets the most money' typically isn't the one that actually cures you, because if it did, it would stop getting money and no longer be the one who got the most money.

The scientific method, combined with medicine, combined with capitalism produces this very hideous beast of a system which naturally evolves to simply cycle as many people through it, doing JUST enough to keep them coming back.

Of course anyone can do a study. I would LOVE to do a study on the acne diet link and get atleast ONE very thorough, well-done clinical study out there. But you need to be rich to do that and I am not rich. Then even if I managed to gather together the thousands of dollars to produce one small study. There would be one study, among the dozens of studies concerning new synthetic patented acne treatments that says otherwise. Which would result in a 'professorial' statement along lines of "The VAST majority of the evidence points to their being more effective ways to treat acne than diet therapy".... One single grassroots person pushing studies cannot possibly compete with multi-million dollar companies in the clinical research department. Then further than that, it simply just should not take this much effort to prove common sense to people. Really clinical research at this point in time is nothing more than the most advanced form of advertising you can invest in.

Science is not an open grounds in which anyone can go to prove truths to the rest of humanity. It is the grounds on which multi-million dollar companies can go to convince people of lies in mass, brainwash common sense out of them and get them to ignore intuition. All at the peoples expense of suffering more while companies profit.

With all that said I just want to extend this a little farther. Now knowing my history with this, my past experience with this. The possibility that SCIENCE, and when I say SCIENCE I am not referring to the 'glorious idealism of how great science can be', but rather I am referring to the FUCK UP that is SCIENCE combined with CAPITALISM. The possibility that SCIENCE is specifically avoiding thoroughly exploring possible CURES for cancer, HIV or other disease would not surprise me. Of course there is "no conclusive evidence that HIV or cancer can be cured". But there are a handful of people around the world who have found various techniques and treatments, with good theory and explanation behind them, many claims of cured patients and even SOME solid clinical research already done, that are not getting more exploration by the institutions that could do so. Of course declaring any small doctors claimed cancer treatment as an actual CURE without further study is absolutely ABSURD. But to completely ignore them and not even attempt to investigate it further is equally as absurd. With the millions of dollars that go through cancer and HIV research there should be a small smidgen of that going towards exploring the other possibilities and techniques that people are discovering around the world.

This also easily extends to pharmaceuticals. How can an AMPHETAMINE analogue be declared the best 'prescription drug' for ADD when there are over a dozen healthier, completely natural stimulants that have no study done on them? Of course a company isn't going to study the herbals, they will just invest all of their money into their patented synthetics. I mean what kind of fuck up would it be if the pharma company let out a study demonstrating that coffee, tea, yerba mate, ginseng, maca, eleuthro, kat or betel are just as effective as their patented amphetamine analogue for the given purpose? It would be a pretty major fuckup. So thus far, no study is done. COFFEE is not used as a control in clinical research of stimulants for treating ADD. I mean come on, coffee, how hard is it to think "I wonder how much more affective espresso is over amphetamine". Not hard at all. Espresso should be a substance which amphetamine is compared against in studies on ADD. But I personally would assume such a thing is avoided because if any natural stimulant is evidenced to be equally as effective as amphetamine, well amphetamine sales just got fucked, CAN'T HAVE THAT.

Is it really possible that for-profit, capitalist, companies that have no desire other than making money MAY be avoiding RESEARCH that would essentially put them out of business? My past experience would say yes.

Science, when combined with capitalism, just does not work in practice and cannot be declared the pillar of 'TRUTH' that so many people would like to declare it as. It was a great 'theory' just as communism and democracy once was. But put into practice it fails. So I think it is best to go back to the drawing board. I would really like this thread to be about discussing ways in which this pitfall of science could be corrected in our current system.

Last edited by dio; 05-31-2011 at 01:04 AM..
Old 05-31-2011, 12:43 AM dio is offline  
Reply With Quote
#1  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

Sup
 
Sup's Avatar
 
i thought you were banned
__________________
Sup
Old 05-31-2011, 12:43 AM Sup is offline  
Reply With Quote
#2  

Creepster
 
Creepster's Avatar
 
TLDR

Fuck capitalism, socialism ftw baby
__________________
[Shinespark]You never fail to live up to your name.
[sneetch]Oh Creepster, I'm still waiting for my erotica.
Old 05-31-2011, 12:44 AM Creepster is offline  
Reply With Quote
#3  

dio
 
dio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sup View Post
i thought you were banned

Why would I be banned?
Old 05-31-2011, 01:09 AM dio is offline  
Reply With Quote
#4  

acidfast7
 
acidfast7's Avatar
 
Socialism FTW ...

I love 14USD/gal of gas and public transportation that always breaks down
__________________
I always post that shitty animated .gif of a boulder tumbling down a hill.
Old 05-31-2011, 02:33 AM acidfast7 is offline  
Reply With Quote
#5  

gee
MY TITLE ISNT LONG ENOUGH
 
gee's Avatar
 
I'm an R&D engineer at one of those evil "corporation" things that's part of the whole evil "capitalist" system. I use the scientific method in my work, and it seems to be working just fine - my work leads to the creation of new products, and I continue to receive a paycheque.

Scientific method, provided it's conducted properly, works fine.

What you should be focusing on is the lack of _ethics_ present in lots of large corporations. Tobacco corporations, oil corporations, big pharma, etc... Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpwcF3Malj8

I'm sure there was plenty of science conducted by Philip Morris and other companies that suggest that smoking actually fucks you up... except for maybe a single, poorly conducted study that for some reason indicated health benefits.

And oil companies pretty much know that they're fucking the world up, and that future generations will be pissed off that we didn't save fantastic chemical resources like oil/natural gas for them. But do you expect them to shut down, liquidate themselves and give their money to shareholders because of ethical reasons like that? fuck no.
Old 05-31-2011, 05:06 AM gee is offline  
Reply With Quote
#6  

pyramid
COORS LIGHTSPEED: ENGAGED
 
pyramid's Avatar
 
BORKED
__________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street
Old 05-31-2011, 05:57 AM pyramid is offline  
Reply With Quote
#7  

Creepster
 
Creepster's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gee View Post
I'm an R&D engineer at one of those evil "corporation" things that's part of the whole evil "capitalist" system. I use the scientific method in my work, and it seems to be working just fine - my work leads to the creation of new products, and I continue to receive a paycheque.

Scientific method, provided it's conducted properly, works fine.

What you should be focusing on is the lack of _ethics_ present in lots of large corporations. Tobacco corporations, oil corporations, big pharma, etc... Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpwcF3Malj8

I'm sure there was plenty of science conducted by Philip Morris and other companies that suggest that smoking actually fucks you up... except for maybe a single, poorly conducted study that for some reason indicated health benefits.

And oil companies pretty much know that they're fucking the world up, and that future generations will be pissed off that we didn't save fantastic chemical resources like oil/natural gas for them. But do you expect them to shut down, liquidate themselves and give their money to shareholders because of ethical reasons like that? fuck no.

Actually, Yes! - Because it's the right fucking thing to do. What's wrecking this planet is greed and therefore also capitalism. Try being happy about what you got instead of contantly dreaming about what you want, might even remove some stress as well.

Capitalists = 's with low sperm count
__________________
[Shinespark]You never fail to live up to your name.
[sneetch]Oh Creepster, I'm still waiting for my erotica.
Old 05-31-2011, 06:03 AM Creepster is offline  
Reply With Quote
#8  

acidfast7
 
acidfast7's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
Actually, Yes! - Because it's the right fucking thing to do. What's wrecking this planet is greed and therefore also capitalism. Try being happy about what you got instead of contantly dreaming about what you want, might even remove some stress as well.

Capitalists = 's with low sperm count

well spoken.
__________________
I always post that shitty animated .gif of a boulder tumbling down a hill.
Old 05-31-2011, 06:21 AM acidfast7 is offline  
Reply With Quote
#9  

SemperFly
 
SemperFly's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
Actually, Yes! - Because it's the right fucking thing to do. What's wrecking this planet is greed and therefore also capitalism. Try being happy about what you got instead of contantly dreaming about what you want, might even remove some stress as well.

Capitalists = 's with low sperm count

yes because oil companies shutting down would be so great for a world that relies heavily on it and would grind to a halt without it turning every single country on the planet into a dystopian third world shit hole because it can no longer power its infrastructure
Old 05-31-2011, 06:44 AM SemperFly is offline  
Reply With Quote
#10  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
But it's it's it's The Right Thing To Do tm
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 05-31-2011, 12:35 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#11  

Mooninites
 
Mooninites's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
Actually, Yes! - Because it's the right fucking thing to do. What's wrecking this planet is greed and therefore also capitalism. Try being happy about what you got instead of contantly dreaming about what you want, might even remove some stress as well.

Capitalists = 's with low sperm count

You should boycott anything that was produced and/or distributed using oil or other products from these greedy corporations.
__________________
Mooninites unite!
Old 05-31-2011, 01:01 PM Mooninites is offline  
Reply With Quote
#12  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dildo
Science, when combined with capitalism, just does not work in practice and cannot be declared the pillar of 'TRUTH' that so many people would like to declare it as. It was a great 'theory' just as communism and democracy once was. But put into practice it fails. So I think it is best to go back to the drawing board. I would really like this thread to be about discussing ways in which this pitfall of science could be corrected in our current system.

So I guess the computer you are using does not work, Nor lasers or mp3 players or digital watches or latex paint or latex gloves or the space shuttle or airliners or cruise missiles etc etc. I guess some voodoo dr just pointed a stick around at piles of junk and they self assembled into these items.

Or do they work because we only think they work and, but wait that effort to prove they work would make them break. ZOMG its all a House Of Cards based on illusion created by an evolved electron that thinks its a man.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 05-31-2011, 01:36 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#13  

SemperFly
 
SemperFly's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooninites View Post
You should boycott anything that was produced and/or distributed using oil or other products from these greedy corporations.

no way, it's so much easier to complain about something but refuse to actually sacrifice one's conveniences to uphold one's principles. but see people need computers in order to fight against the corruption of the megacorps so it's ok to keep funding those megacorps
Old 05-31-2011, 01:41 PM SemperFly is offline  
Reply With Quote
#14  

joemama
Watch Toomer burn those cowboys. How bout them cowboys?
 
joemama's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
Actually, Yes! - Because it's the right fucking thing to do. What's wrecking this planet is greed and therefore also capitalism. Try being happy about what you got instead of contantly dreaming about what you want, might even remove some stress as well.

Capitalists = 's with low sperm count
So you really have no clue that everything you see around you that makes your life comfortable enough to have the time to spout nonsense on the interwebnets....was created in whole or partly by this evil substance you despise?

edit- as for the OP, wow that's a lot of wordy words that were spelled using letters from the English alphabet.
__________________
Rapid-fire double bass of the GenMay dru[M]mers collective

Syndrome of a Downs- drums/songwriter
._--_|\
/ииииииии\
\_.--Bumfuck Egypt
.......v
Old 05-31-2011, 01:45 PM joemama is offline  
Reply With Quote
#15  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:55 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.