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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
You realize that only shit for brains retards like yourself could ever connect those things, right? You can't call your analogy anything but total .

Data collection and manipulation for dummies. I think you need to find a copy.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:27 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Creepster.old
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama View Post
Most terrifying video ever! This guy seems rational, but gives up his real agenda at the end. Why did he not factor in that some of the things in the bottom of column B (other than JUST economic) would also happen at the top of column A? The current global recession has already hurt the worlds poor...a full blown global depression would also likely result in warfare, genocide, famine etc.. And the biggest thing he left out is a moderate solution..making it seem like you either go full bore or do nothing. I don't see what is wrong with with the world going "green" in a gradual manner (that will naturally speed up over time) that doesn't give way too much power to world governments, tax the ever living fuck out of ordinary citizens, and make things even tougher on the worlds poorest? If people really think that scaring people into believing that all coastal cities will be underwater within 2 decades is the only way to make them accept draconian government regulations on their way of life...well, I really don't know how to respond to that.

Well, it did make me think, the green energy sector could provide jobs, but only when the oil price starts going up.

I really don't care about CO2 levels, but about pollution, and what it does to us. Some folks seem to think that burning oil is a good thing, and i always tell them to spend an hour in the garage with the engine on.

The only bad part i can find about CO2 is acidification of the ocean, but haven't looked into that a lot - my guess is fear mongering. if we find crustacean fossils in the same periods as high CO2, that pretty much disproves it - New species will adapt and such.

What i AM concerned about is desalination of the gulf-strream, the thawing russian tundra, methan hydrates and water shortage.

Also, i think the guy in the vid has a point, and he asks you to put in your own scenarios.

Don't mind oil running out either, diesel engines are
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:28 PM Creepster.old is offline  
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joemama
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Don't mind oil running out either, diesel engines are
wtf man... Since the rest of your post seems to be serious...I'll assume you really didn't know that Gasoline/Petrol and Diesel all comes from crude oil?

I agree that pollution is a big motivation for wanting to move away from our current coal/oil/gas dominated way of life to much more environmentally friendly alternatives. On the other hand...it would be a mistake to force a swift change when current technology is not ready to step in as a complete replacement. Doing so will only shift the balance of power from one small set of fat cats to another...a gradual change will allow more companies/individuals to get in on the action and profit from it. Capitalism is a powerful thing..if there truly was a better alternative (better in all ways including cost of production) then you can bet that someone would have jumped on it by now. What we have now is a large collection of alternative technologies that aren't ready for primetime...and many of them require more energy (as in fossil fuel) to produce than they're worth at the moment..
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:54 PM joemama is offline  
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Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
The only bad part i can find about CO2 is acidification of the ocean, but haven't looked into that a lot - my guess is fear mongering. if we find crustacean fossils in the same periods as high CO2, that pretty much disproves it - New species will adapt and such.
It wouldn't actually disprove anything. Species will adapt, yes, but over thousands of years. The intervening period would be quite painful.

Quote:
Don't mind oil running out either, diesel engines are
Like joemama said, diesel comes from oil just like gasoline goes, lol. And we also use oil for all sorts of other stuff, plastics not least among them. There's not really a good alternative for fossil fuels in terms of chemical application, unlike in energy.
Old 11-17-2009, 08:10 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Creepster.old
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
It wouldn't actually disprove anything. Species will adapt, yes, but over thousands of years. The intervening period would be quite painful.


Like joemama said, diesel comes from oil just like gasoline goes, lol. And we also use oil for all sorts of other stuff, plastics not least among them. There's not really a good alternative for fossil fuels in terms of chemical application, unlike in energy.

I know about the diesel part - the neat thing about diesel engines are the way they oeprate - the first version was intended to run on peanut oil.

I had a VW Golf II which i ran on rapeseed oil (during the summer, 50% during autumn)

Fossil diesel sucks
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:38 PM Creepster.old is offline  
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joemama
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I know about the diesel part - the neat thing about diesel engines are the way they oeprate - the first version was intended to run on peanut oil.

I had a VW Golf II which i ran on rapeseed oil (during the summer, 50% during autumn)

Fossil diesel sucks
rapeseed

Seriously though, many people make the mistake of thinking about this whole thing in terms of what powers your car or cools/heats your home while forgetting about the things that Gibonious mentioned. Saying that modern industrial/technological society was built by petroleum and petroleum by-products is a massive understatement...and like I said earlier, if there really was an alternative then we would have it by now. Making fossil fuels absurdly expensive to force a change will only hurt those who can't afford the new OR old way of doing things. It will take time...and if Florida becomes part of the gulf in the meantime then so be it. (might actually be a good thing )
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:47 PM joemama is offline  
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Creepster.old
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama View Post
rapeseed

Seriously though, many people make the mistake of thinking about this whole thing in terms of what powers your car or cools/heats your home while forgetting about the things that Gibonious mentioned. Saying that modern industrial/technological society was built by petroleum and petroleum by-products is a massive understatement...and like I said earlier, if there really was an alternative then we would have it by now. Making fossil fuels absurdly expensive to force a change will only hurt those who can't afford the new OR old way of doing things. It will take time...and if Florida becomes part of the gulf in the meantime then so be it. (might actually be a good thing )

Oh, i'm not talking about taxing it or raising the price, supply and demand should take care of that. I just wish we would start doing something about it now. Some sources even claim fossil fuel will keep on replenishing itself making me go :facepalm: since burning it isn't the smartest thing to do

And don't get me started on the "hydrogen economy"
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:55 PM Creepster.old is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creepster View Post
Oh, i'm not talking about taxing it or raising the price, supply and demand should take care of that. I just wish we would start doing something about it now. Some sources even claim fossil fuel will keep on replenishing itself making me go :facepalm: since burning it isn't the smartest thing to do

And don't get me started on the "hydrogen economy"
Yes, supply and demand does affect the price of petroleum, but even with the increased demand from China, India and elsewhere...supply isn't really the problem in the forseeable future, but refinement capacity is. There are investors who keep millions of barrels constantly moving from port to port on massive tankers waiting for the price of oil to go up and be profitable...oil being "transported" isn't taxed the same way as oil being unloaded for sale. Living in Texas where space isn't a problem (outside of crowded urban areas) and sun and wind are plentiful....I could fully power my home with a windmill/solar panel combo and have enough left over for charging an electric vehicle...but all of those things are too expensive currently ($15k+ just for a basic home wind generator that alone won't be enough for heavy usage) but will certainly reach affordable levels in time...assuming that everyone isn't spending an ungodly amount of their income on artificially (and sudden) inflated fossil fuel costs.

Hydrogen is only one alternative form of energy that currently requires more fossil fuel to produce than it's worth. Until all alternative energy sources can be cheaply and reliably produced in large quantities using OTHER alternative energy sources...this will continue to be a dilemma..
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:04 AM joemama is offline  
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Decent video explaining some basics.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:16 AM SnakeIRye is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Um no, co2 is not a prime shaper/driver of the earths climate. Methane is more powerfull a greenhouse gas as is water vapor.

Methane in the americas was Higher before europeans came, the slash and burn agriculture the indians practiced kept a large amount in circulation. Don't know how much that affects global distribution though.

Co2 also gets sequestered faster than the AGW junk science needs for their shit models.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:27 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Vote McCain!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
Um no, co2 is not a prime shaper/driver of the earths climate. Methane is more powerfull a greenhouse gas as is water vapor.

Methane in the americas was Higher before europeans came, the slash and burn agriculture the indians practiced kept a large amount in circulation. Don't know how much that affects global distribution though.

Co2 also gets sequestered faster than the AGW junk science needs for their shit models.

look dude, CO2 is a prime driver of climate, but also you are right when you say that water vapor is more important: it has a wider absorption spectrum than CO2.

you're wrong about sequestration though. do you know why the lifetime of CO2 has levelled out at 200 yrs? its because those sequestration reservoirs have already filled up. When the reservoirs are empty, CO2 has a very low lifetime, since it just gets sucked into reservoirs due to concentration gradients. But as the reservoir fills up, the rate at which it takes in CO2 decreases, so the observed lifetime increases and eventually levels out, as is our situation today. The sequestration reservoirs are filled/nearly filled, and we need to create new ones.
Old 11-20-2009, 04:49 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
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look dude, CO2 is a prime driver of climate, but also you are right when you say that water vapor is more important: it has a wider absorption spectrum than CO2.

you're wrong about sequestration though. do you know why the lifetime of CO2 has levelled out at 200 yrs? its because those sequestration reservoirs have already filled up. When the reservoirs are empty, CO2 has a very low lifetime, since it just gets sucked into reservoirs due to concentration gradients. But as the reservoir fills up, the rate at which it takes in CO2 decreases, so the observed lifetime increases and eventually levels out, as is our situation today. The sequestration reservoirs are filled/nearly filled, and we need to create new ones.

Um no the, 100-200 year lifetime has been disproven it's less than 10% of that time currently.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:13 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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And now comes the leaked files from Hadley CRU, which includes E-mails and datafiles discussing such gems as:
  • how to "massage" temp data to fit expectations when the data shows exactly the opposite of expectations;
  • how best to make people rely on the (now known to be running on bad data) climate models instead of the direct observations, which are not supporting AGW;
  • how to recover missing data thanks to a few inept coders writing modeling programs without commenting or documenting them at all;
  • what data to destroy in response to a FOI request;
  • how to avoid IRS reporting rules on "donations;"
  • how to marginalize AGW skeptics and drive specific skeptics out of the scientific community.


Ultimately the entire dataset being used by to support the AGW theory is now suspect until it's confirmed to not include anything from Hadley, and along with it all declarations and policy involving an AGW view of climate behavior is also now suspect until the same confirmation is made. Basic rigor demands that dubious data be discarded and replaced, and now everything Hadley has ever released and everything ever released by anyone working there is suspect. Correspondingly, everything derived or based on these datasets from Hadley is also suspect, and the effect ripples outward like a tsunami from an undersea rockslide. This is gonna just about require resetting the entire AGW research effort globally to correct.


Basically, the bottom line appears to be this:

Climate change is real, provable, known. That's not in dispute. What is disputed is the human effect, and as it turns out human activity is at worst a very minor effector in the process, and at best has zero real effect. The data from researchers wanting to support an AGW view was showing that AGW is not a valid theory and they knew it, and efforts were made to bend the data to fit the assumptions instead of changing the hypothesis to fit observations, a violation of one of the basic tenets of scientific theory. You don't massage the data when you're talking about a theory which, if proven true, could ultimately be an end-of-the-world situation.

The Hadley "incident" is being downplayed hard by AGW supporters but it's a nail-in-a-coffin situation that will end some careers (and rightly so - if you're a so-called scientist and you have to resort to data falsification to support a hypothesis you discover is errant, you need to go find another career), and kick a lot of climate-centric global policy decisions in the teeth. The upcoming Copenhagen summit will be very interesting indeed thanks to these little tidbits.


You'd think that people would be happy to discover homo sapiens isn't destroying the world after all (at least not by cooking everything to death), but apparently not...
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:01 AM OddOne is offline  
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I was wondering how long it would take for you to post that here Oddone. Should probably carry over at least a couple of the links from that thread.
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Old 11-21-2009, 10:46 AM Renork is offline  
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I was wondering how long it would take for you to post that here Oddone. Should probably carry over at least a couple of the links from that thread.

A few things:

a) Until non-blog sites start posting the emails that are apparently filled with proof of the Great Science Conspiracy, the story doesn't mean anything. Every month your group tries to pass off some non-issue as proof that there isn't warming.

b) The Hadley Centre is the body that said a few weeks ago (in that awful BBC blog article) that the British climate had cooled slightly this past year. So if you believe they're fakes, you should retract anything you've said about it.

c) Hadley data is NOT the be all and end all of the massive body of evidence in support of AGW. Even morons like you know this, so stop pretending otherwise.



And for the 10000000th time...be clear about your position. Are you:

1) Arguing that there is no warming

2) Arguing that the warming is not due to CO2 emissions?

You guys keep flipflopping between these two positions (which are mutually exclusive).
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:06 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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