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1337rider
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlete View Post
Are freedom, equality, and brotherhood truly christian ideals? Is the nation truly founded on christian principles? Does the constitution protect the sabbath? Encourage people to honor their parents? Is god mentioned anywhere in it?

Sorry, I just don't see the connection.

I actually did some research to find support for the idea that this nation was founded on christian ideals, and read some opposing views. I now realize that just because some ideals are shared between christianity and our constitution etc, doesn't mean they necessarily came from christianity. Some ideas arejust so good more than one entity incorporates them!
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:27 PM 1337rider is offline  
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Seriously. It's like the word hypothesis has just gone out of the english language and been replaced by theory. A theory is very different from a hypothesis. And scientific laws - they're just theories as well.

Yep.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:59 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Opajew
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Originally Posted by 1337rider View Post
I actually did some research to find support for the idea that this nation was founded on christian ideals, and read some opposing views. I now realize that just because some ideals are shared between christianity and our constitution etc, doesn't mean they necessarily came from christianity. Some ideas arejust so good more than one entity incorporates them!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident," they said, "that all men are created equal." Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:02 PM Opajew is offline  
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident," they said, "that all men are created equal." Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down.


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Old 12-27-2007, 10:11 PM 1337rider is offline  
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I wrote this to help convince my friends on facebook and myspace a little while ago. It applies DIRECTLY to this and IMO shoots this whole thread down--

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Originally Posted by ry_from_the_past
As I argue Ron Paul more I gradually come to realize, neo-consevative ideals have infested even liberals, normal conservatives and libertarians. What I mean by this is, once in a great time many years ago the president was seen as a leader of the federal government. He was a businessman, he would go to the white house, do the job as it should be done, try to retain the federal government being as objective and for the people as possible.

Somewhere along this, the notion that the president is merely the leader of the federal government got lost. The public began to elevate the president to status of moralistic superhero in a sense. Someone your supposed to elect to stand up on the podium, say things that agree with your morals so that you can have some more basis for feeling correct. This reached it's peak in Bush. Where quite literally he got elected only off his position as this moralistic superhero and not as the leader of the federal government. The ideal that I say seems to have infested everyone is that the president is supposed to be some moralistic superhero. Well I would profess, the last election demonstrated the error of this notion. It demonstrated why you should not look at the president for even slightest bit of moral, or personal likeness to you. That is a neo-conservative fabrication, an added delusion to the original notion of what the president is.

The president, once in that great time, was elected by how he would lead the federal government. How good his policies were for the federal government. He was transparent to moralistic values, a figure in the background maybe only coming forth for public speeches when it dealed with legislation or crisis pertaining directly to the federal government.

I will say in this regard, Ron Paul is perfect.

However we have this old mode of retardation that culminated at Bush which thinks perfection of the president requires complete attunement of him to your moral predispositions and what you think should be morally correct. And theres people pulling moral bashes to Ron Paul. He is pro-life, he is firm believer in Christianity, he is possibly a little racist? (dunno where people got that), he thinks America is somewhat to blame for terrorist attacks etc. Just watch FOX news it goes on and on.

All of that is nonsense, because he has one overbearing belief that negates all of that. States rights, complete states rights. His moralistic stance on pro-life is not going to create pro-life legislation in Oregon. His personal beliefs in Christianity are not going to create Christian inclined legislation in Oregon. He is going for the federal government, a place where he knows moralistic bullshit should be left at home, in his community. But yet people want to bash him by forcing him to pretend his morals have some relation to the federal government?

Please, get that left over bullshit of neocon presidential, moralistic superhero out of your head. The federal government is not your moralistic crutch, it never was supposed to be. That notion is an invention of bad presidents in order to help them get elected on basis other than how good of a federal leader they would be. So they can use there moral, personal life as an excuse to be a worse federal leader. Your perpetuating the same notion of 'president' that allowed Bush to get into office by bringing up moralistic pitfalls of Ron Paul.

None of his personal moralistic pitfalls matter. He has clear sight on how the federal government should be. He is a businessman who knows how to run the federal government better than any of the other candidates. He is not your dad, he is not the voice of educational videos going into schools, he is not the man your supposed to point to and say 'oh he agrees with my OPINION'. He is the man who is supposed to run the federal government in an objective, open stance to serve the people. That is it, nothing more, morals and personal values do not belong in a presidential debate. The only thing that belongs is how he's going to do his job

Which the overall stance of the moral issues for Ron Paul is. Get them out of the federal government, no matter what. If the issue is moral in nature, get it out of the federal government, all of it. It belongs to states rights. Moral difference is largely dependent on geography, proximity of people and community. The notion that any moralistic stance should be put into a federal level to span 1/3 of a continent is a notion so out of tune with the way nature naturally creates moral difference and objective reality that I would go on to say, its nearly neurotic. How the hell can you possibly suppose a single moral should be applied to 300 million people, to 1/3 of a continent. That is the ultimate forgetting of the simple fact 'people are different'. Complete states rights is only correct answer when it comes to the subject of moralistic legislation because it allows it to be more attuned to the smaller set of people who will be living under it.

Yes once all moralistic values are returned to pure state level, some states are going to fuck shit up. But you know what, I believe in evolution, I believe in natural order and I say by means of psychological evolution let the morons in moronic states legislate themselves into hell. Oregon will only flourish in this sort of environment because we are not overrun by idiots, the federal moralistic legislation only holds Oregon down.

As for the gold standard haters. America needs to stop living in it's subjective delusion and be measured by an objective notion of value against the rest of the world. The bubble of fantasy that holds the American dollar's value artificially high will eventually pop. Gradually reintegrating the gold standard is a means to make the American dollar slowly come back to it's true value, rather than just hitting a point of no longer being able to sustain and then crashing.
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Last edited by ry_goody; 12-27-2007 at 10:21 PM..
Old 12-27-2007, 10:13 PM ry_goody is offline  
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#50  

Opajew
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Quote:
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but all the founders were of christian religions, that means the delcaration of independance and constitution are christian works, therefore the united states is a christian nation! oh em g! i'm brillant!

i deserv a medal.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:14 PM Opajew is offline  
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That German Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opajew View Post
but all the founders were of christian religions, that means the delcaration of independance and constitution are christian works, therefore the united states is a christian nation! oh em g! i'm brillant!

i deserv a medal.

That first one is actually rather questionable.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:02 AM That German Guy is offline  
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cromicus
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Quote:
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Neither States or the Federal government should be able to restrict access to a common and safe medical procedure period.
But... but.. but... democracy... democracy knows what's best for the people, doesn't it?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:09 AM cromicus is offline  
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#53  

cromicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337rider View Post
this nation WAS founded on Christian principles.
So ideas like private property, freedom of speech, separation of church and state, equality of men, rejection of monarchy and aristocracy, constitutional republicanism, independent and impartial judiciary, federalism, etc. are all in the Bible? Good luck finding that.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:16 AM cromicus is offline  
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cromicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opajew View Post
"We hold these truths to be self-evident," they said, "that all men are created equal." Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down.
Probably because people tend not to write down the self-evident
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:16 AM cromicus is offline  
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That German Guy
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But... but.. but... democracy... democracy knows what's best for the people, doesn't it?

Sorry, no

Democracy just knows what people think they want.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:27 AM That German Guy is offline  
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#56  

cromicus
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Okay they obviously don't have sarcasm in Germany.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:40 AM cromicus is offline  
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That German Guy
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Okay they obviously don't have sarcasm in Germany.

Actually, they do.

Just not when they've been taking chemicals the Man says they shouldn't.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:45 AM That German Guy is offline  
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Fear Night
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Paul is not a religious nutjob, you have him confused with Huckabee. Paul makes all his decisions off what's written in the Constitution, while Huckabee makes all his decisions off what's written in the Bible.

I think it's funny people think Paul is a wacko. He's pretty much just applying whats written in the Constitution. The people who think 220 year old principles are too old to apply today are the real nutjobs.

Last edited by Fear Night; 12-28-2007 at 04:21 AM..
Old 12-28-2007, 04:16 AM Fear Night is offline  
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That German Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
Paul is not a religious nutjob, you have him confused with Huckabee. Paul makes all his decisions off what's written in the Constitution, while Huckabee makes all his decisions off what's written in the Bible.

I think it's funny people think Paul is a wacko. He's pretty much just applying whats written in the Constitution. The people who think 220 year old principles are too old to apply today are the real nutjobs.

A principle is never too old to be applied, it depends on the situation. Thus, the validity of the principle must be reevaluated every single time it is applied.
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Old 12-28-2007, 05:25 AM That German Guy is offline  
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