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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zypher
One thing that has never been considered in these debates is the effect corporations will have on the sale of marijuana. If marijuana were fully legalized, obviously corporations would see huge profit potential in selling the drug. Naturally most of the population would be skeptical at first to try the new drug. But they would see that every person is a potential profit (children, teens, middle age, everyone). So how can they get every person to buy their product?

Advertising, of course! Yes, this will make every person NEED to smoke marijuana...
[snip]
Couple this with the effect of advertising, and corporate amorality, and you start to have a real problem. A problem that is very similar to that of the cigarette epidemic that plagues the country.
I've said before, in one of the other iterations of this debate, that we should only allow advertizers to advertize adult only material in adult only media. That would mean no 18+ products advertized in non- 18+ media. cigarette, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana (if legalized) and prescription drug makers would all have to advertize in 18+ magazines, web sites, and during TV programs rated MA. I don't think advertizing equals use per se but it does seem to have some effect. I think that would be a fair solution as it wouldn't ban advertizing just limit the intended audience. I don't think it would eliminate the problem but it might be a step in the right direction.

Another thing I have pointed out before in this debate is that we need to update our IDentification cards to be far more secure and less "fake-able". Also, legal but age restricted drug purchases of any type should be linked to a valid ID electronically and stored with the normal transaction data. This would help ensure that age restricted items stay that way and provide a way to deter cash resale to minors or other persons restricted from legally buying intoxicants.

Another possible solution to the problem of commercial interests is to make it legal to cultivate and possess any amount of weed in your home and to make a certain amount legal to possess in public but to make all sales of marijuana illegal. I would tent to think this would leave the useless cat and mouse game we are trying eliminate still lingering to varying degrees. It would probably be far easier to enact than a legal regulated market however.

As to the cigarette epidemic that plagues the country... Cigarette use is declining and has been for a while thanks to people being made aware of the very real dangers of smoking tobacco. The number of smokers in the United States has declined from 37.4 percent to 22.5 percent since 1970 and no one had to go to jail or call the DEA in order for that to happen. I think people are smart enough to think for themselves when given good accurate information.

Also, I don't know how fast large corporations are going to be jumping on the legal weed wandbagon. I'm sure someone would eventually but I don't see them wanting to be first. The profit margins will not be what they were in the illegal market and even there you need to move a lot of product to make money. The profits margins would probably be more like a premium cigarette, which isn't much either, IIRC. The cigarette companies make money on volume because they only get a few cents per pack profit. Much of the cost of a pack of cigarettes is usually taxes, in many places more than half the cost can be tax.

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Just a few things to think about before we all rush in to legalize this drug. I personally think legalization could happen, but it would have to be done very carefully, with the government having controls over the corporations that distribute the drug. However, our government does not have any good way to do this. So in my opinion we are not ready for legalization.
What do you mean they don't have any good way to do this? We have plenty of regulation of fresh produce right now, we have regulation of alcohol and tobacco up the wazoo. I'm pretty sure we can figure out how to regulate marijuana similarly to what is done with fresh fruit, cigarettes, and alcohol right now.

Also, even though we all know weed is not harmless, comparatively it is less potentially harmfull than many OTC medications. We need to stop acting like it's like liquid death. There is a potential danger in people habituating to heavy use and abusing weed on an ongoing basis but there are plenty of fun things people can overindulge in, that's what moderation is all about. Besides, we'd have to try it and see before we could say for sure. When it has been tried in the past there weren't many problems. Several states actually decriminalized small amounts of weed for a while in the 70s. There were no significant problems reported. The feds point out that alaska had a large jump in use but I think you will find that historically alaska has always had a high rate of addiction. Still it was made illegal again for political reasons. The state that the government points to as having the largest problem waited until 1990 to vote to make it illegal again in a pretty close race (54%-46%). Legal or not people are still smoking it in alaska and it is still legal to possess 4 ounces in your home there even though all sale, production, and public possession are illegal. In the netherlands where it is illegal but tollerated by the government under certain guidelines the rates of use are actually lower than they are in the united states. There is a lot of weed smoked there but most of it is smoked by tourists.
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:06 AM pyramid is offline  
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All drugs should be legal, you should be the final authority on what goes in your body, not the government. You are responsible for what you do, both to yourself and others. INANIMATE OBJECTS DONT MAKE PEOPLE DO THINGS. People choose their own path in life, inanimate objects do not make decisions for them.



Alot of people don't have enough self-control when it comes to heroin and cocaine. Would relying on people to make the proper choice with ALL drugs really work?
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:03 AM ry_goody is offline  
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Alot of people don't have enough self-control when it comes to heroin and cocaine. Would relying on people to make the proper choice with ALL drugs really work?

yes
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:45 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Alot of people don't have enough self-control when it comes to heroin and cocaine. Would relying on people to make the proper choice with ALL drugs really work?
That's an issue of prohibition. Since the drugs are illegal and thus taboo, it's difficult to encounter correct information about the drugs. Proper use, dosages, among other things are hard to find. There are very few sources of responsible drug use information since these drugs are illegal.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:14 PM lawlzkekeke is offline  
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That's an issue of prohibition. Since the drugs are illegal and thus taboo, it's difficult to encounter correct information about the drugs. Proper use, dosages, among other things are hard to find. There are very few sources of responsible drug use information since these drugs are illegal.


And no ingrained social boundries bounding their use passed on from generation to generation.
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:57 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Originally Posted by lawlzkekeke
That's an issue of prohibition. Since the drugs are illegal and thus taboo, it's difficult to encounter correct information about the drugs. Proper use, dosages, among other things are hard to find. There are very few sources of responsible drug use information since these drugs are illegal.


has proper education on these drugs really showed an actual significant outcome in other countries?
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Old 01-08-2006, 03:35 PM ry_goody is offline  
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Originally Posted by turd sculptor
has proper education on these drugs really showed an actual significant outcome in other countries?
Ever been to the Netherlands (Holand)?
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Old 01-08-2006, 05:03 PM CRasch is offline  
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has proper education on these drugs really showed an actual significant outcome in other countries?
Has prohibition ever led to a decrease in crime?
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Old 01-08-2006, 06:00 PM lawlzkekeke is offline  
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Originally Posted by turd sculptor
Alot of people don't have enough self-control when it comes to heroin and cocaine. Would relying on people to make the proper choice with ALL drugs really work?
People will either make the right choices or they won't. I don't think trying to force them to make the right decisions about what to put in their own bodies by way of the criminal justice system works out for the best. Either you use responsibly and it doesn't cause problems in your life or you abuse and it does. Prohibition just makes the whole situation worse by compounding the problems and not solving any of them. Putting people in jail and taking their property away for what they choose to do to themselves does not better their situation.

I don't know if having cocaine and heroin on the shelf at the local 7-11 would be a good idea but I also don't think having the entire business of distributing cocaine and heroin to addicts in the hands of criminals is a good idea either. I think we should have a system of secure dispenseries where hard drugs are made available cheap or free to addicts and also where councelling and help seeking treatment is available. This would tie into my other points about needing better ID and restricting advertizing. I don't think there should be ads for hard drugs, if we advertize anything it should be the location of the local dispensery and leave it at that.

The finer points could be debated and details hammered out based on what actually works around the world and what has worked in the past but we aren't even to the point where anyone with a political future will even suggest in public that there might be a problem with our solution to our drug problem. There is no debate where it matters and there never will be until people are made aware of just how poorly our solution is working out and demand that someone actually look into this and demand change.
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Old 01-08-2006, 07:38 PM pyramid is offline  
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responding to topic, i think weed should be legal (i dont do it either) partly because as the numbers said it costs the government millions to arrest drug abusers, and its a freaking substance, u'd think america should be making money off weed (who knows, if legalized, america might to go war with.. ummm u know, those countries that make weed, led by mniorites, and arent owned by wealthy white men)

that aside

tax on cigrattes in US is retarded -___- i hate having to spend close to 4 bucks for a pack of cigarettes when i could get them at the airport for like 1.50 at duty free...

gay, fcking gay. but that just goes to show how if there is a tax on weed, it'd be hard to afford, and our poor minorities (the majority that does weed) wouldnt be able to afford it in the first place (is that a problem? who knows)
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:13 PM littleaznbag is offline  
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Bullshit.
This is more important than Supreme Court Jusitces?
This is more important than American foreign policy?
This is more important that pending wars?
EOD

this issue is more important than all these things, as it is intertwined with each one of them. it is the single greatest policy failure in america today, causing more death and destruction than the iraq war has, or its absence would have caused.
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:27 PM Enygma is offline  
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this issue is more important than all these things, as it is intertwined with each one of them. it is the single greatest policy failure in america today, causing more death and destruction than the iraq war has, or its absence would have caused.

How exactly has pot being illegal caused death and destruction?
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:51 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Originally Posted by Ray Charles
How exactly has pot being illegal caused death and destruction?
People are shot in pot raids all the time, some of them completely innocent. Police are hurt and mamed and killed all the time trying to bust cash grows run by criminals. People have died in prison after being sent there for pot: 1 2 ... , people have killed themselves at the prospect of being prosecuted for pot and having their home stolen and family torn apart. People are most likely dying without access to the thing that allows them to keep food and medecine down thanks to government raids on medical marijuana dispenseries. People are fleeing our country, the land of the free, to go elsewhere where they can smoke a plant to help aleviate their medical symptoms without having to face draconian laws. Gangs and organized crime wage war over the illicit, multi-billion dollar pot trade...
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:21 AM pyramid is offline  
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These people are in trouble because they are breaking the law. Wether you agree with the law or not, you have to be stupid to imagine you can break it with no consequences. The police would be in danger anyway wether they're making a pot bust or a heroin bust. It's part of their job. If the police didn't have to worry about enforcing marijuana prohibition they would be focusing on other drugs.

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Originally Posted by pyramid
People are most likely dying without access to the thing that allows them to keep food and medecine down thanks to government raids on medical marijuana dispenseries.

Something tells me that if these were legitimate pharmacies dispensing marijuana to people with perscriptions for it, the government wouldn't be raiding them.


That's hardly "death and destruction".

You know that what makes marijuana so lucrative for criminals right now is the high demand. Marijuana users have created the incentive for criminals to do bad things in order to make money off of pot. These users know that they're causing this situation but they must be okay with it or they wouldn't buy the pot. I realize that legalization is a way to end most of the marijuana-related gang fighting, but for you to just stop using it would be another. The fact that you use marijuana provided by these gangs implies that you either agree with their actions or that you're fooling yourself as to where your money is going. If you're not okay with Nike paying Vietnamese workers sub-minimum wage to make shoes then you shouldn't buy Nikes. If you think that what Nike does is okay then you'll buy Nikes. If you think what your growers and dealers are doing is okay then you'll keep buying pot.

You're complaining about a problem that you have created and have the power to stop, it would just require you to make a small sacrifice. But if you toking up is worth a few gangbangers biting it, then by all means continue what you're doing.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:44 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Originally Posted by Ray Charles
These people are in trouble because they are breaking the law. Wether you agree with the law or not, you have to be stupid to imagine you can break it with no consequences. The police would be in danger anyway wether they're making a pot bust or a heroin bust. It's part of their job. If the police didn't have to worry about enforcing marijuana prohibition they would be focusing on other drugs.
You must have missed the part about police comonly busting into the wrong house and shooting innocent people who had nothing to do with marijuana at all. No one should die for marijuana and police shouldn't be busting into peoples homes because they might <gasp> be growing a plant there. Police have better things to do than to get shot at or shoot people over a plant, like protecting people from those who want to harm them, not protecting people from what they want to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home.

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Something tells me that if these were legitimate pharmacies dispensing marijuana to people with perscriptions for it, the government wouldn't be raiding them.
There is no such thing as a legitimate marijuana dispensery according to the federal government and if they have their way there never will be. They DO NOT CARE if you are abiding by state law, they don't want those state laws to stand. They have raided numerous dispenseries that were operating under state law including many licensed personal grow operations that were only supplying medical marijuana to between one and a handful of fully state licensed medical marijuana users. They do not care about legitimacy under local law they only care about enforcing their view, that any and all marijuana use is a clear and present danger to our nation. You act as though they were given a fair chance, this is not a fair game. The rules are stacked in the government's favor and they are going to do everything they can get away with to keep it that way.

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That's hardly "death and destruction".
What do you think the feds would do to these people given the chance? They would lock them in prison and let them die without medecine because they claim they were drug kingpins because they dared to grow plants in their own home for their own consumption to aleviate symptoms of some disease. Then when they take you to court they don't even allow you to mention medical conditions, state laws you were complying with, or medical marijuana at all so you have no defense.

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You know that what makes marijuana so lucrative for criminals right now is the high demand. Marijuana users have created the incentive for criminals to do bad things in order to make money off of pot. These users know that they're causing this situation but they must be okay with it or they wouldn't buy the pot. I realize that legalization is a way to end most of the marijuana-related gang fighting, but for you to just stop using it would be another. The fact that you use marijuana provided by these gangs implies that you either agree with their actions or that you're fooling yourself as to where your money is going. If you're not okay with Nike paying Vietnamese workers sub-minimum wage to make shoes then you shouldn't buy Nikes. If you think that what Nike does is okay then you'll buy Nikes. If you think what your growers and dealers are doing is okay then you'll keep buying pot.
No, prohibition creates the problem and prohibition perpetuates the problem. Prohibition laws have decided that it is more illegal for you to grow your own plant at home than it is to continue to support the black market and criminal enterprise. The penalties for growning your own weed are far more stiff than they are for being caught in possesion of the final product pretty much anywhere.

The demand is high because people like altering their state of consciouisness and people like weed but the supply is limited because of prohibition which is what makes it so lucrative. If it were a legal product it would be grown openly in large fields and it would cost about as much as other fresh organic produce: SEVERAL DOLLARS PER POUND. Prohibition is what makes something that actually does GROW ON TREES in abundance cost as much as precious metals ounce for ounce. There is no reason for marijuana to cost upwards of $400 an ounce except for prohibition.

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You're complaining about a problem that you have created and have the power to stop, it would just require you to make a small sacrifice. But if you toking up is worth a few gangbangers biting it, then by all means continue what you're doing.
Now you are just being silly. I wasn't around in 1937, nor was I a member of congress at that time, as such I had nothing to do with marijuana being made illegal for racist, ignorant reasons. I did not write for newspapers at the time making up bogus stories of mexicans and negros going on rampages after smoking a little of the devil weed. I had absolutely no part in causing the problem and if it were up to me I would end the problem (prohibition), sadly it is not up to me. The only thing that will stop this is educating the people so they will demand that this nonsense be ended.

And this notion that everyone should just stop doing what they want to their own bodies so everyone else can just be happy is a load of shit too. An individuals right to govern their own internal body and the basic functioning of their own mind is beyond the government's authority. Where the government seeks to regulate the chemical operations/interactions that are going on inside my brain while I sit in the privacy of my own home they overstep their bounds. There has never been a good reason for marijuana to be illegal. It is a safer drug than alcohol or tobacco and the people who choose to use it should not be penalized for their personal choice for no good reason.

Perhaps if marijuana had been made illegal because of some public harm it was actually causing and not because it was associated with certain groups and made illegal just to harrass those groups then you would have a good argument that it is the users causing the problem. Unfortunately for you the reason marijuana was made illegal was because it was associated with mexicans and white people thought there were a few too many of them around during the depression. Then marijuana was associated with black people and white people had a problem with them too. Then it was associated with anti-war hippies and the counter culture and we know how dangerous that lot is with their peace and love crap so we had to keep it illegal despite repeated presidential studies saying there was no reason for it to be illegal. If there is no good reason for the law in the first place then there is no good reason for it now. Saying it should be supported just because it is the law is unamerican and silly. There is no good reason to support an unjust law.

The fact of the matter is that prohibition brings suffering and death to people all over the world. This is a fact. Whether you think those people who are suffering and dying are worth your consideration is up to you. Personally I wouldn't blame the people who are victimized by our unwillingness to abolish a meritless prohibition for causing the problem. The blame lies squarely with those who are unwilling to admit that it was a mistake and that it should end immediately.
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