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g0rg0n
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I really wish we could get away from the politics of gun ownership. choosing to either own or not own guns doesn't dictate whether you're a liberal or a conservative. the quicker we can remove the political BOTH sides spew relentlessly the quicker we'll be able to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this bitch intelligently.


and a special note to gun owners: Look guys, we don't help anything by spouting obnoxious, reactionary, paranoid rhetoric. If our argument is made logically and informatively then we've done a good job. If anti-gun folks resort to stereotyping and insulting blanket statements then take solace in the fact that you've helped to make a case that has at least agitated some and will likely make many more think, which should be the ultimate goal.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:45 PM g0rg0n is offline  
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Originally Posted by g0rg0n View Post
I really wish we could get away from the politics of gun ownership. choosing to either own or not own guns doesn't dictate whether you're a liberal or a conservative. the quicker we can remove the political BOTH sides spew relentlessly the quicker we'll be able to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this bitch intelligently.


and a special note to gun owners: Look guys, we don't help anything by spouting obnoxious, reactionary, paranoid rhetoric. If our argument is made logically and informatively then we've done a good job. If anti-gun folks resort to stereotyping and insulting blanket statements then take solace in the fact that you've helped to make a case that has at least agitated some and will likely make many more think, which should be the ultimate goal.


I like how you think.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:15 AM Woe is offline  
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Originally Posted by mofugger View Post
If you're trying to shoot down my logic, get the fuck off the internet and only express your constitutional protected free speech in newspapers and magazines.

either make an actual argument, or ignore me



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Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
1) Personally I don't think there should be a line. It's already illegal to kill people, what purpose do gun bans serve? If I want to kill you and guns are illegal I'll bludgeon you to death, run you over with my car, etc. You have nothing to fear from a law abiding citizen, and the unlawful citizens will circumvent the law anyway. It's like the old saying 'A lock keeps an honest man out'.
The problem here is that its circular logic. Everyone without a rap sheet should have access to any weapon because only people with a rap sheet are the problem. Everyone starts somewhere, and I promise you that when more guns are more easily accessible, it heightens the level of any altercation. Thats the problem with the criminals vs law abiding citizen thought train, you don't know which law abiding citizen will become a criminal next.

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2) The second amendment stemmed from the revolution that had just birthed America. By ensuring the right to bear arms, America was practically guaranteed a safety net to protect our rights/country.

3) This goes back to 1).
Which is a problem because a) the guns you have available now wouldn't help much if you had to overthrow the government, and b) giving all "law abiding citizens" access to all kinds of weapons (so that you are able to overthrow a corrupt government), i suspect would result in a society that is way way way worse then now.

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I'm not saying this is fact or the only (right) way. These are my opinions and if you have more questions I'll do my best to answer them for you. If I'm unclear on anything ask and I'll try to elaborate.
Thanks for a serious reply, I just got fucked on my thesis abit so I won't be able to reply very frequently, but I will answer/adress any argument

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Originally Posted by Slacker View Post

An AR-15 because I've already got plenty of magazines leftover from my deployment. Plus if the government decides to take away my rights I would like to be able to defend myself.
Defend yourself from whom? and how? Please do elaborate...

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At least one pistol that I can carry concealed. For instance last night when I was out jogging I could tell there were two people spraying graffitti on a bridge nearby. I called the police but when they finally arrived 25 minutes later the individuals had left. If I had a gun I would have been more comfortable in going over there and confronting them. As it is I didn't know if this was two teenage kids that would run away as soon as they saw me or a couple of gangbangers who might be armed.
So you'd risk your own/their lives for some fucking graffitti? Jesus christ!
You could have shouted at them from a safe distance, just to see if you could spook them. Gun or no gun, I would not for the life of me confront someone over some fucking grafitti. Sure, if there had been innocent people in possible danger, you step in, but for grafitti? christ...


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Originally Posted by g0rg0n View Post
I really wish we could get away from the politics of gun ownership. choosing to either own or not own guns doesn't dictate whether you're a liberal or a conservative. the quicker we can remove the political BOTH sides spew relentlessly the quicker we'll be able to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this bitch intelligently.

and a special note to gun owners: Look guys, we don't help anything by spouting obnoxious, reactionary, paranoid rhetoric. If our argument is made logically and informatively then we've done a good job. If anti-gun folks resort to stereotyping and insulting blanket statements then take solace in the fact that you've helped to make a case that has at least agitated some and will likely make many more think, which should be the ultimate goal.
THIS! A MILLION TIMES THIS, ON ANY SUBJECT!, WHY ISN'T THE ENTIRE WORLD LIKE THIS GUY!?!?!!?
Thanks for making a shitty day good <3
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:05 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:19 AM Thermo1223 is offline  
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The problem here is that its circular logic. Everyone without a rap sheet should have access to any weapon because only people with a rap sheet are the problem. Everyone starts somewhere, and I promise you that when more guns are more easily accessible, it heightens the level of any altercation. Thats the problem with the criminals vs law abiding citizen thought train, you don't know which law abiding citizen will become a criminal next.

I'm all for fucking people in the ass if they use guns in conjunction with crimes. If you use a firearm while committing a crime, bump the sentence up to a felony (in cases where it's not already a felony) and give much harsher sentencing.

Criminals are going to get weapons anyway. They don't use the same channels law abiding citizens do. I'd never buy a Mac-10 from a shady looking guy in an alley. A criminal doesn't care, he probably prefers it that way. No background check, no records, no regulations at all.

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Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
Which is a problem because a) the guns you have available now wouldn't help much if you had to overthrow the government,

The AR-15 (which is civilian legal) is basically the same gun as the military's M-16, with the exception that the AR is strictly (I'm talking in general, i.e. no tax stamps) semi-auto, where as the M-16 will sport different firing modes (semi, burst, and full-auto). It fires the same round (a .223 caliber bullet) and the more expensive consumer AR-15s will be better built and more accurate than the military versions.

It's true that your average citizen can't get the firepower to bring down a tank or airplane, but man for man, they can be almost as well equipped as the average infantry soldier.

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Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
and b) giving all "law abiding citizens" access to all kinds of weapons (so that you are able to overthrow a corrupt government), i suspect would result in a society that is way way way worse then now.

I don't see how it would change that much. Just because I could legally own an anti-tank missile doesn't mean I'm gonna start running around blowing shit up. They'd be expensive as hell and the legal repercussions would be devastating.
Old 05-29-2009, 10:38 AM Chilly is offline  
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Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
either make an actual argument, or ignore me


I don't need to justify why I exercise my constitutional rights
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:43 AM mofugger is offline  
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Originally Posted by Chilly View Post
I'm all for fucking people in the ass if they use guns in conjunction with crimes. If you use a firearm while committing a crime, bump the sentence up to a felony (in cases where it's not already a felony) and give much harsher sentencing.

Criminals are going to get weapons anyway. They don't use the same channels law abiding citizens do. I'd never buy a Mac-10 from a shady looking guy in an alley. A criminal doesn't care, he probably prefers it that way. No background check, no records, no regulations at all.
This is true, but like i said, with the majority of [those] crimes being crimes of passion, harsher sentencing isn't gonna do much (not that it does anyway but still).
The problem is that you can't use deterrents in that way, since the criminal doesn't know he will become a criminal unless its too late


Quote:
The AR-15 (which is civilian legal) is basically the same gun as the military's M-16, with the exception that the AR is strictly (I'm talking in general, i.e. no tax stamps) semi-auto, where as the M-16 will sport different firing modes (semi, burst, and full-auto). It fires the same round (a .223 caliber bullet) and the more expensive consumer AR-15s will be better built and more accurate than the military versions.

It's true that your average citizen can't get the firepower to bring down a tank or airplane, but man for man, they can be almost as well equipped as the average infantry soldier.
a) the u.s army has training and experience no civilians will have (in general, there will ofc be exceptions
b) this would prolly have been true no less then 10years ago, but as it is now, and the way its going, the gap between possible civilian levels of armament and army style will only grow a LOT bigger (you've prolly seen some of the advancements planned/implemented). Not to mention their tactical prowess will dwarf anything you can muster

Quote:
I don't see how it would change that much. Just because I could legally own an anti-tank missile doesn't mean I'm gonna start running around blowing shit up. They'd be expensive as hell and the legal repercussions would be devastating.
again, passion.

And the problem with drugs/alcohol. Its one thing to get drunk and accidentally stab your mate, or shoot him in the leg, or get into a drunken roadrace, but the level of accessible gear potentially worsens the situation. (I know im not formulating this very eloquently, just ask me to elaborate, and ill try again )
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:54 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Guns don't cause harm, people due so IMO taking them away or hindering it in any sense will make criminals strive harder to find a weapon that works.

If the civilian in question knows how to fire a rifle, firing an AR-15 is second nature.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:41 PM Thermo1223 is offline  
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So you'd risk your own/their lives for some fucking graffitti? Jesus christ!
You could have shouted at them from a safe distance, just to see if you could spook them. Gun or no gun, I would not for the life of me confront someone over some fucking grafitti. Sure, if there had been innocent people in possible danger, you step in, but for grafitti? christ...



so if you happened to catch some people spray painting your house/car/dog/anything of yours,,, you would just let them do it? i sure as shit hope you are never my neighbor

or would you try to amaze them with your awesome logic?

because as the guy who you are trying to belittle here stated... the police take too long
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:18 PM Copejunkie is offline  
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I really wish we could get away from the politics of gun ownership. choosing to either own or not own guns doesn't dictate whether you're a liberal or a conservative. the quicker we can remove the political BOTH sides spew relentlessly the quicker we'll be able to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of this bitch intelligently.


and a special note to gun owners: Look guys, we don't help anything by spouting obnoxious, reactionary, paranoid rhetoric. If our argument is made logically and informatively then we've done a good job. If anti-gun folks resort to stereotyping and insulting blanket statements then take solace in the fact that you've helped to make a case that has at least agitated some and will likely make many more think, which should be the ultimate goal.

I fully agree.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:53 PM Joves is offline  
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I fully agree.

I partially agree with this, as it seams most anti-gun people are not happy having the choice, but fully seek to remove my rights as well.

Extremism is the defense of liberty is no vice.
Old 05-29-2009, 07:24 PM DarkHelmet is offline  
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g0rg0n
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I partially agree with this, as it seams most anti-gun people are not happy having the choice, but fully seek to remove my rights as well.

Extremism is the defense of liberty is no vice.

but here's the problem, they may seek to remove our rights, but that won't happen. be realistic, as the argument goes on we will have to give a little ground sometimes and we'll take more back if we seek to educate rather than resort to your "Extreme" means which seem to consist of little more than paranoid ranting and name calling. which is exactly what the anti-gun people are doing. Ultimately the side that stops doing that and steps above it will be more successful.
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Old 05-30-2009, 09:30 AM g0rg0n is offline  
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Wiggles, as I put forward to all the anti gun left people I meet, I will invite you to a range to go shooting and increase your knowledge.

Ironically most libs don't want to do this.

We did take a gay shooting once, that was interesting to say the least. I do think he had an enjoyable time of it and at least knows the difference between semi and full auto now.

i'd be down. i haven't been to the range in a few years, and have mostly only shot handguns so it would be cool to try some of the crazy stuff you guys might have
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Old 05-30-2009, 09:33 AM wigglesworth is offline  
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#103  

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but here's the problem, they may seek to remove our rights, but that won't happen. be realistic, as the argument goes on we will have to give a little ground sometimes and we'll take more back if we seek to educate rather than resort to your "Extreme" means which seem to consist of little more than paranoid ranting and name calling. which is exactly what the anti-gun people are doing. Ultimately the side that stops doing that and steps above it will be more successful.

I'm all for education and increased learning on the subject. If you look at the 1994 AWB it was basically written by people that had no idea what it was about. How sad it is that the "leaders" of today know not of the tools of liberty. If they would have had a basic understanding of the mechanics of firearms this would never have been passed.

Same point can be made about the outlawing of automatic weapons. The differences of them are trivial at best.

Now as to extremism.

If you ask me my views on why we have a second amendment I will simply say "to allow the people to defend themselves, and to abolish a government which is destructive of liberty." This is said by the enemies of liberty to be an "extreme" viewpoint. However it is the correct viewpoint and the one that protects liberty, and I don't hold it to be an extreme view.

Lots of people want us to give up this right as they say "our government will not harm us". A nation that believes this will live on it's knees, not defend itself on it's feet. History has proved again and again this is true.
Old 05-30-2009, 11:21 AM DarkHelmet is offline  
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mofugger
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i'd be down. i haven't been to the range in a few years, and have mostly only shot handguns so it would be cool to try some of the crazy stuff you guys might have

I'll extend he offer as well if you're ever on the gulf coast.
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Old 05-30-2009, 12:10 PM mofugger is offline  
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