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Universal coverage lowers the cost of insurance and makes sure everyone can get the help they need without driving people/households to bankruptcy. This is good for our economy.


Is lowering the cost of insurance mandated or is it an assumption? Making sure everyone get the help they need sounds good but I don't think it is that simple. You say its good for our economy. In that context would it be better for our economy to let some people go into bankruptcy for their medical needs?



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The only reason to not want it is if you are one of those people who believes they are indestructible or someone who doesn't feel they can afford it, ...


That is wrong. I don't want it and I don't feel that I am indestructible yet believe I can afford it.


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Both of those types of people are driving up the costs for the rest of us.


Since you now know that there is at least a third group, do you think I am driving up the cost of insurance for you and if so, how?




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Emergency rooms are have always been required to provide emergency care but prior to the new health care law if you were uninsured and came down with something it was pretty much impossible to buy coverage at any price point because the insurance companies were not taking any applicants with preexisting conditions which would cost them money.


That sounds reasonable. I can sympathize with someone in that situation but it is reasonable.



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They also used things like recision, in which they pretty much decide that you have become too expensive to maintain and just drop you and your coverage no matter how long you have been paying them for.


Going back to a question I asked you above. Suppose a bill passed (vs. what did pass) that regulated rescission. Would that not have been an economically feasible option?




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The insurers also used to be able to write into their policies things like time limited care, wherein you were contractually obligated to pay them and one missed or late payment could result in you being immediately dropped but if you became became sick they were only contractually obligated to cover your sickness for two years or so. This pretty much wrote recision into your health care contract.



I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here. If a person misses or makes late payments, they should still expect to receive their contractual benefits? And about two years of coverage. You say contractually obligated, as in the contract they should have read. We are talking about adults, right? Are you arguing that they shouldn't be responsible?




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What can I say? Societies are participatory things and people organize society through government. If you can figure out how to have a government and organized society that works without the government ever compelling anyone to do anything then you are a much smarter man than I.



Hey! I didn't say anything about taxation not be meddling. Is this a long winded way to say you cede the point?
Old 05-28-2012, 09:28 PM edplayer is offline  
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Dude just stop... really.

I DO have health insurance. i want it to cost less


And doctors do make you healthy much like a mechanic repairs a car. What are you driving at? I suppose you can do all your own surgery, dentistry, blood tests and all that...


I understand that you want your health insurance to cost less. Why not just say that you want to pay less money instead of these feeble attempts at trying to justify it as doctors gunna make people helthy somehow. What I'm driving at is that you are a fucking moron and I will call you out on this issue every time I see a comment about it coming from you.

Getting a surgery doesn't make you healthy. Seeing a dentist doesn't make you healthy. Taking a blood test doesn't make you healthy. Keep up cumming dum dum.
Old 05-28-2012, 09:34 PM edplayer is offline  
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I understand that you want your health insurance to cost less. Why not just say that you want to pay less money instead of these feeble attempts at trying to justify it as doctors gunna make people helthy somehow. What I'm driving at is that you are a fucking moron and I will call you out on this issue every time I see a comment about it coming from you.

Getting a surgery doesn't make you healthy. Seeing a dentist doesn't make you healthy. Taking a blood test doesn't make you healthy. Keep up cumming dum dum.

There's no talking to someone this dense. What's the point of medical care then? We should all just drink herbal tea when we need to have a cut stitched up, or some bones aligned and a cast made...

Pyramid i advise you to give up, he's fucking brain dead and can't possibly learn anything.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:38 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Getting a surgery doesn't make you healthy. Seeing a dentist doesn't make you healthy. Taking a blood test doesn't make you healthy. Keep up cumming dum dum.

I still don't understand this, unless we're talking semantically.

You're right, a blood test/teeth-cleaning/surgery doesn't make you healthy, but its results can have a major impact on your health and well-being.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:40 PM 5ive is offline  
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I still don't understand this, unless we're talking semantically.

You're right, a blood test/teeth-cleaning/surgery doesn't make you healthy, but its results can have a major impact on your health and well-being.

no shit!

There's about a trillion medical procedures which can save your life.

Then there's the meds, which you can't get without a doctor.



Now i DO think that doctors (general practitioners) are overpaid drug dealers whose knowledge can be accessed for free on WebMD but that still doesn't change the fact that you need to go to them as a starting point. That's how the system works. Their education costs a shitload so they pass that on to you and as of right now there's no alternative.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:53 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I still don't understand this, unless we're talking semantically.

You're right, a blood test/teeth-cleaning/surgery doesn't make you healthy, but its results can have a major impact on your health and well-being.



How old are you? I'm asking you because I want to compare you to dum dum above. You see that there must be a problem with word choice here vs. dum dum just keeps repeating similar points thinking that method can convince people of what he is thinking.

Since you understand that those things don't make a person healthy maybe what you want to ask me is what does. If that is so then I would say that it is complicated and I don't know everything about it but to summarize it I would say it involves giving your body as much as it can use of the things it needs/can benefit from and minimizing everything that causes insult to the body
Old 05-28-2012, 09:55 PM edplayer is offline  
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I'm 21 and my parents take care of all my medical shit, which is why I never know what I'm talking about
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:57 PM 5ive is offline  
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How old are you? I'm asking you because I want to compare you to dum dum above. You see that there must be a problem with word choice here vs. dum dum just keeps repeating similar points thinking that method can convince people of what he is thinking.

Since you understand that those things don't make a person healthy maybe what you want to ask me is what does. If that is so then I would say that it is complicated and I don't know everything about it but to summarize it I would say it involves giving your body as much as it can use of the things it needs/can benefit from and minimizing everything that causes insult to the body

In short you're blabbering like a dumbass about nothing.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:01 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Getting a surgery doesn't make you healthy.
If you have an appendix that's about to burst or some other life threatening condition, it kind of does.

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Seeing a dentist doesn't make you healthy.
If you get a bad tooth repaired or removed before it causes an abscess which lands you in the emergency room on an operating table having emergency surgery to save your life, it kinda does.

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Taking a blood test doesn't make you healthy.
If that blood test identifies a treatable condition and you get treated because you had the blood test instead of letting that treatable condition turn into something that kills you because you never even knew you had it, it kinda does.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:03 PM pyramid is offline  
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If you have an appendix that's about to burst or some other life threatening condition, it kind of does.


If you get a bad tooth repaired or removed before it causes an abscess which lands you in the emergency room on an operating table having emergency surgery to save your life, it kinda does.


If that blood test identifies a treatable condition and you get treated because you had the blood test instead of letting that treatable condition turn into something that kills you because you never even knew you had it, it kinda does.


It kinda of does if you believe health is the absence of acute symptoms. If you have your appendix and bad tooth removed then you might not worry about them anymore. Removing them won't help you if you have amyloid plaques forming in your brain. Removing them won't help if you have pinpoint hemorrhaging throughout your body. There could be 900 things going wrong at once within you and fixing two of them would bring it down to 898. Only 898 things wrong with me, yay I'm healthy!
Old 05-28-2012, 10:14 PM edplayer is offline  
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Is lowering the cost of insurance mandated or is it an assumption?
It's a provable fact based on experience from around the world. Just look at all the examples I've cited of abuses of the emergency rooms. With universal coverage, most of that hot mess goes away. People can see doctors for regular doctors visits or have someone to call for things a call will suffice for. Even when people do land in the emergency room, if they are insured, that visit costs less because hospitals know they are getting paid. When hospitals get paid regularly, they no longer need to pad bills to make up for unpaid inflated emergency room bills.

Also, the new bill mandates that 80 cents out of every dollar that consumers spend on insurance must go to actually providing care instead of marketing and lobbying and profits.

If our health care costs were in line with how much the universal systems of the EU cost, that would cut about a trillion dollars from our annual health care costs. That is money back in the hands of consumers, businesses and the government. That seems pretty win-win to me.

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Making sure everyone get the help they need sounds good but I don't think it is that simple. You say its good for our economy. In that context would it be better for our economy to let some people go into bankruptcy for their medical needs?
I don't think having millions of people going bankrupt over medical bills is good for the economy. Medical bills are causing ~60% of the bankruptcies in the nation.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...e?_s=PM:HEALTH

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They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness. On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point.
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That is wrong. I don't want it and I don't feel that I am indestructible yet believe I can afford it.
So what do you do for a potential medical emergency? Do you have a medical savings account? Are you financially independent to the point where you can absorb a 50-100k medical bill? Or are you just going to pass the cost on to everyone else?

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Since you now know that there is at least a third group, do you think I am driving up the cost of insurance for you and if so, how?
because if you suffer something catastrophic you could end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bills and the loss of your ability to work for a significant amount of time and possibly even your job which means you have racked up a large amount of debt you may not be able to pay off which means that cost must be absorbed elsewhere... ie increased rates for people who do pay.

shit happens to people all the time. my abscessed tooth ER visit ended up costing 50K because I didn't go pay for a couple hundred dollar dental visit and I was uninsured. I went to bed one night with a painful tooth and woke up the next morning with a swollen face and neck that required surgery and two weeks of drainage to fix.


Quote:
Going back to a question I asked you above. Suppose a bill passed (vs. what did pass) that regulated rescission. Would that not have been an economically feasible option?
I think it's better to get away from "death panels" all together but that's because I think health care should be a universal right and not profit centered.

rescission (thanks for spelling it correctly, derp) is the real death panel that sarah palin was running around scaring people with.

at a certain point rescission does make sense because of not only the cost but the morality of spending a million dollars or more just to keep someone in a barely alive state for another week. that doesn't make sense to me economically, medically, or ethically.


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I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here. If a person misses or makes late payments, they should still expect to receive their contractual benefits? And about two years of coverage. You say contractually obligated, as in the contract they should have read. We are talking about adults, right? Are you arguing that they shouldn't be responsible?
most people get their coverage in our system through their work and the employer decides what policy or range of policies the employee can choose from so it's not really an individual consumer signing a contract that they chose for themselves. Often it's people taking what they can get, choosing from limited options which have already been chosen for them.

If we had a system where everyone went out and shopped for and purchased their coverage like they do for cars that would carry more weight.


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Hey! I didn't say anything about taxation not be meddling. Is this a long winded way to say you cede the point?
pretty much.
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Last edited by pyramid; 05-28-2012 at 10:42 PM..
Old 05-28-2012, 10:34 PM pyramid is offline  
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It kinda of does if you believe health is the absence of acute symptoms. If you have your appendix and bad tooth removed then you might not worry about them anymore. Removing them won't help you if you have amyloid plaques forming in your brain. Removing them won't help if you have pinpoint hemorrhaging throughout your body. There could be 900 things going wrong at once within you and fixing two of them would bring it down to 898. Only 898 things wrong with me, yay I'm healthy!

How do you know how many things are wrong with you if you never see any sort of doctor or have any sort of tests done?
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:38 PM pyramid is offline  
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It kinda of does if you believe health is the absence of acute symptoms. If you have your appendix and bad tooth removed then you might not worry about them anymore. Removing them won't help you if you have amyloid plaques forming in your brain. Removing them won't help if you have pinpoint hemorrhaging throughout your body. There could be 900 things going wrong at once within you and fixing two of them would bring it down to 898. Only 898 things wrong with me, yay I'm healthy!

I know you're trying to "split hairs" not to look like a total troglodyte after all the other nonsense but it just isn't working.

Acute symptoms aside, apparently you've never had or heard of a regular physical. Instead of explaining that to you here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_examination

You must live in Uganda, in a converted american greenwaste container, or the deep south (roughly the same thing) where your parents treated you with a beating every time you felt too sick to do house chores.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:27 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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It's a provable fact based on experience from around the world. Just look at all the examples I've cited of abuses of the emergency rooms. With universal coverage, most of that hot mess goes away. People can see doctors for regular doctors visits or have someone to call for things a call will suffice for. Even when people do land in the emergency room, if they are insured, that visit costs less because hospitals know they are getting paid. When hospitals get paid regularly, they no longer need to pad bills to make up for unpaid inflated emergency room bills.


A provable fact doesn't sound right. I don't want to put words in your mouth but would something like "reasonable assumption" be more appropriate? Or do the physics of the universe really dictate that the cost would go down? I could speculate on what might or might not happen in a few years but it would be just that, speculation. But to me seeing Americans attempt to monetize almost every situation they are in to the most that can be is something that I now expect. I mean why would you spend money lobbying Congress? To make things the same or worse for you?




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Also, the new bill mandates that 80 cents out of every dollar that consumers spend on insurance must go to actually providing care instead of marketing and lobbying and profits.


Do you know which side administrative costs would fall under? And how much do you know about hospital and insurance integration? As in how much is allowed and how much exists.



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If our health care costs were in line with how much the universal systems of the EU cost, that would cut about a trillion dollars from our annual health care costs. That is money back in the hands of consumers, businesses and the government. That seems pretty win-win to me.



That sounds like a lot. Do you think we would save that much in the United States?




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I don't think having millions of people going bankrupt over medical bills is good for the economy. Medical bills are causing ~60% of the bankruptcies in the nation.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...e?_s=PM:HEALTH


Sorry I didn't read the link so maybe what I'm going to say has already been addressed in it. Is it better for the economy for those people to go bankrupt vs. the hospitals, docotors, nurses, staff and everyone/thing else involved taking their money. I know that sounds cold but you did bring it up.





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So what do you do for a potential medical emergency? Do you have a medical savings account? Are you financially independent to the point where you can absorb a 50-100k medical bill? Or are you just going to pass the cost on to everyone else?


because if you suffer something catastrophic you could end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bills and the loss of your ability to work for a significant amount of time and possibly even your job which means you have racked up a large amount of debt you may not be able to pay off which means that cost must be absorbed elsewhere... ie increased rates for people who do pay.

shit happens to people all the time. my abscessed tooth ER visit ended up costing 50K because I didn't go pay for a couple hundred dollar dental visit and I was uninsured. I went to bed one night with a painful tooth and woke up the next morning with a swollen face and neck that required surgery and two weeks of drainage to fix.


I actually have insurance (supplied through my work). I don't want it because even though I pay a small amount its still more than what I use it for (two teeth cleanings a year). Though I might leave and go solo soon so this will be an issue. Haven't thought about it that much and I might consider catastrophic insurance but I'll think about it later.

And because something could happen followed by something else that might happen is conjecture. As in me not having insurance could end up costing you more money, not it will cost you more money.



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I think it's better to get away from "death panels" all together but that's because I think health care should be a universal right and not profit centered.

rescission (thanks for spelling it correctly, derp) is the real death panel that sarah palin was running around scaring people with.

at a certain point rescission does make sense because of not only the cost but the morality of spending a million dollars or more just to keep someone in a barely alive state for another week. that doesn't make sense to me economically, medically, or ethically.




most people get their coverage in our system through their work and the employer decides what policy or range of policies the employee can choose from so it's not really an individual consumer signing a contract that they chose for themselves. Often it's people taking what they can get, choosing from limited options which have already been chosen for them.



I don't know what a death panel is. And I would actually sort of agree with you that health care should be a universal right which might look a lot like I agree on universal coverage but I don't because they are two different things. You say it should not be profit centered but I don't understand how what passed recently will move it away from that. If anything it looks like it will codify it even more.

All I know about Sarah Palin was that she was in a porno movie. So I don't know her stance on rescission.

If people are getting insurance through their employer they should still read their coverage (at least whatever aspects they think they will use) so I don't think it being employer supplied is a good excuse not to be aware of the coverage limits and its definitely not an excuse for late/missing payments yet still expecting benefits.
Old 05-28-2012, 11:31 PM edplayer is offline  
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I know you're trying to "split hairs" not to look like a total troglodyte after all the other nonsense but it just isn't working.

Acute symptoms aside, apparently you've never had or heard of a regular physical. Instead of explaining that to you here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_examination

You must live in Uganda, in a converted american greenwaste container, or the deep south (roughly the same thing) where your parents treated you with a beating every time you felt too sick to do house chores.


I'm splitting your moms ass. A physical could make you aware of some issues. There is no way it would make you aware of everything just like there is no way it would make you healthy.

Keep trying dum dum. You can google and wikipedia yourself all day long and still won't be able to cobble together any coherent argument on the topic.
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