General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
sir tex
 
sir tex's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jubjub View Post
I agree with your trenchant assessment -- but I must point out the obvious -- we already were in a "long and costly war with Japan".

Yeah, yeah, you know what I meant.
__________________
cd6e8ebb5168d8886a502892ceb7e346
Old 08-07-2008, 12:32 AM sir tex is offline  
Reply With Quote
#16  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jubjub View Post
IMO-The most important date in history.

Q. What do you gentle folk think of the decision to end WW2 by dropping "The Bomb" ?

Used the second one on the wrong country.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 08-07-2008, 12:55 AM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#17  

FloppieTheBanjoClown
 
The powers that be thought their cool new toy would save a lot of American lives. That was sufficient justification to them, and I agree with their assessment.
Old 08-07-2008, 05:05 AM FloppieTheBanjoClown is offline  
Reply With Quote
#18  

Schrodinger
I fucked Diarrhea Connoisseur and all I got was syphilis
 
Absolutely necessary. Japs airbrushed the hell out of all of their warcrimes from their history, though.
__________________
._--_|\
/ Sydney
\_.--._/
.......v
Old 08-07-2008, 07:05 AM Schrodinger is offline  
Reply With Quote
#19  

▀█▀ █ ▀█▀ ▄█▀
 
▀█▀ █ ▀█▀ ▄█▀'s Avatar
 
The land invasion of Okinawa had what--a projected 10 million casualties on both sides?

Yeah, definitely a good idea.

Plus it kept the Russians at bay for a little while.

edit: Thought the firebombing of Tokyo that happened shortly before may have seemed a bit excessive in retrospect.
Old 08-07-2008, 03:14 PM ▀█▀ █ ▀█▀ ▄█▀ is offline  
Reply With Quote
#20  

jubjub
TweedleDumber
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ▀█▀ █ ▀█▀ ▄█▀ View Post
The land invasion of Okinawa had what--a projected 10 million casualties on both sides?

ummm...not quite..but might as well have been.


really nasty shit.
__________________
I didn't say that I didn't say it. I said that I didn't say that I said it. I want to make that very clear.
Old 08-07-2008, 04:27 PM jubjub is offline  
Reply With Quote
#21  

Defiler
 
The biggest problem I see with this whole issue, is that we are taking unto account information we know today, and not taking into account information we knew or were led to believe in 1945.

The first atomic bomb test we had was July 16, 1945, then August 6th, exactly 3 weeks later, we used it on Japan. The war was getting wary on the public, and based on information they had about how japanese doctrine for such things as surrender worked, it kinda made it a very hard decision. One of the strategies for taking japan was to blast a path through the country with nukes.. Not to mention, the day before japan surrendered, there was an attempt to assassinate the emperor that failed, to try and prevent him from doing so, which supports the argument that there were people fairly high up in the ranks who wanted to keep on fighting, even on their mainland.

So, was it the right thing to do by today's standards?

absolutely not.

Was it the right thing to do based on information our president and military advisors at the time knew?

Maybe, maybe not. But it happened, and japan surrendered shortly afterward. So the strategy worked.
__________________
9155fb13bb30f91c791f5348f9a9fa42
Old 08-07-2008, 04:49 PM Defiler is offline  
Reply With Quote
#22  

Malakai
 
Frankly I don't know the true circumstances or real motivations of the days' leaders for dropping the bombs. I'm fairly convinced showing the rest of the world never to fuck with us was at least a small factor in the decision, which is definitely morally wrong (in the same sense I feel todays 'preventative wars' are also immoral). Japan was not attacking the US mainland at the time, nor were we on the defensive, both factors which I must take into account.

All I know for sure is that my fellow Americans shrug the murder (intentionally killing civilians in war is still murder IMO) of hundreds of thousands of people off as 'neccessary' far too easily.


When I look at it from another point of view though, I definitely feel it was wrong. If Iraqi insurgents (those fighting our offensive into their country) were to nuke 2 of our larger cities now, we certainly wouldn't think "it's okay they had to do it" would we? In a sick way they might even be considered more justified since they are at least on the defensive.

And no matter your opinion, the fact of the matter is that America is the only country in world history to nuke another country, defensive or offensively. The fact that we (well our 'leaders') think we have the moral justification to decide what countries are allowed to have nuclear arms is fucking insane considering this fact.

I'm definitely not proud of it like a lot of folks here in America seem to be. Great topic by the way.

Last edited by Malakai; 08-07-2008 at 05:20 PM..
Old 08-07-2008, 05:13 PM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#23  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir tex View Post
It saved countless Allied, and probably even Japanese lives. If we hadn't have dropped the bomb, we would have entered into an extremely long and costly war with Japan, with many more hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of casualties on both sides. The Japanese are a proud culture and needed to be shocked into a surrender decision. Obviously dropping nuclear weapons on humans isn't an ideal thing, but in war, ultimately humans will do whatever they can to win.

You realize of course that this is just conjecture right? Just because your school history texts say it would have happened doesn't make it magically true. We don't KNOW what would have happened. They could have surrendered a few days later, or we may have really had to go into their mainland. Even assuming they did not surrender it is still up for grabs whether the death toll would really have been so much worse otherwise.

Not saying your opinion is wrong, but you cannot make a rational judgment about something when you take an assumption, even a likely one, as concrete fact.

I also can't morally justify the killing of hundreds of thousands of enemy civilians as an exchange for the troop losses we could incur.
Soldiers for the most part know what they are doing and accept the consequences. But we know from experience and history that the general public is pushed, forced, or maneuvered with propaganda into wars by their leaders; most people are just trying to get through each day with their lives intact on either side.
If we simply write their lives off as justified war targets, we must also write our own lives off just the same to our enemies.

Frankly the whole idea of terrorism seen as attacking the civilian targets of your enemies would seem to be morally justified from the point of view that our destruction of civilian targets in war is justified.

I sometimes think of it this way. Japan started the war with us with a military strike on a coastal military base. We ended it with a nuclear strike on 2 populated Japanese cities.
We don't really seem like the righteous ones when put that way IMO...

Last edited by Malakai; 08-07-2008 at 05:41 PM..
Old 08-07-2008, 05:24 PM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#24  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTRocketMan View Post
It really shouldnt even be a discussion. With the culture of ww2 Japan, an invasion would have been a bloodbath for both sides. I picture Iraq times 1000. If we didn't drop the bomb, the death toll would have been in the millions.

Does it matter to you that the people there were basically told the same thing about you as you were about them? Just like, whether the commie or american side of the cold war, the descriptions of the other side are always the same.
The imperialist Commies will take over the world and destroy our "capitalist" (mixed/part socialist) society.
The imperialist Americans will take over the world and destroy our socialist society.
People during war pretty much believe whatever their government tells them; or at least enough that the ones who think they are full of shit never gain the majority.


Quote:
There is another more subtle reason dropping the bomb was a good thing. Showing that power, showing how horrible the weapon we created was, I think it helped keep the cold war cold. We'd seen how horrible atomic weapons were once, I don't think the US wanted more blood on its hands from it.
Nuking non-civilian targets might have accomplished the same thing. We didn't even give it a try first, we just went right for the civvies.

Either way, a good thing. lol. How like god we believe ourselves to be. If you were Japanese and your family was vaporized in the blasts I don't think you would share that sentiment. I think the argument here is whether it was morally justified, or necessary, not 'a good thing'.
Old 08-07-2008, 05:49 PM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#25  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrodinger View Post
Absolutely necessary. Japs airbrushed the hell out of all of their warcrimes from their history, though.

Japanese people didn't do it, government did.
And Japan did not invent revisionist history. They are not the first, nor the last. We portray practically everything America has ever done as right and just in our textbooks here, and skip what cannot be justified, so we are just as guilty.
Just the fact that you are so quick to condemn japan of covering their war crimes when we do it on a very large scale here at home is pretty amusing. Or the fact most people write off the only offensive nuking of another country in history as 'a good thing' because it may or may not have turned out better for us/them/whoever.
Old 08-07-2008, 06:02 PM Malakai is offline  
Reply With Quote
#26  

Schrodinger
I fucked Diarrhea Connoisseur and all I got was syphilis
 
I don't live in America, and I guess that's absolute propaganda, too. My country, Australia, has a massive black armband view of history we learn of every thing bad our country ever did.
__________________
._--_|\
/ Sydney
\_.--._/
.......v
Old 08-07-2008, 06:43 PM Schrodinger is offline  
Reply With Quote
#27  

UTRocketMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Does it matter to you that the people there were basically told the same thing about you as you were about them? Just like, whether the commie or american side of the cold war, the descriptions of the other side are always the same.
The imperialist Commies will take over the world and destroy our "capitalist" (mixed/part socialist) society.
The imperialist Americans will take over the world and destroy our socialist society.
People during war pretty much believe whatever their government tells them; or at least enough that the ones who think they are full of shit never gain the majority.

What you are saying here hurts your overall point. According to you, Jap government told them that when the Americans invaded, we would destroy their society. Whether true or not, the fact that the government manipulated their people so badly, most likely would have caused civilians to take up arms against American troops. I'm not saying the American people weren't lead the same way, but I'm also sure that if the Japanese invaded the American mainland, it would have been a massacre of both sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
Nuking non-civilian targets might have accomplished the same thing. We didn't even give it a try first, we just went right for the civvies.

Either way, a good thing. lol. How like god we believe ourselves to be. If you were Japanese and your family was vaporized in the blasts I don't think you would share that sentiment. I think the argument here is whether it was morally justified, or necessary, not 'a good thing'.

Most military targets at the time were mixed in with civilian targets, probably in an effort to discourage bombings by our overwhelming air force. I also doubt that the Japanese would have been so likely to surrender, if we had simply nuked a small military target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_...ice_of_targets

We didn't have a never ending supply of nukes. Each and every one would have had extreme strategic importance. They had to use them where they would make the biggest impact, and make the Japanese surrender. In hindsight, you can speculate about other targets. After 4 years of all out war with an enemy nation, and no end to that in sight with the invasion of Japan, I doubt any of us can put ourselves in our leaders' shoes.

Moreover, just as you critize us for making the conjecture that there would have been more deaths, you use conjecture to say that there would not have been such casualties with invasion (which given the history of military occupations, an assumption you simply cannot make). If you were Japanese and saw your family gunned down by American GI's, I doubt you'd care whether or not they were shot or vaporized. What has the greater moral justification?

And I really don't agree with your assessment that troop losses are somehow less morally significant than civ. losses. When did they stop being people, simply for putting on a uniform and defending their country? You cannot compare WW2 to current terrorism and you know it.
Old 08-07-2008, 07:03 PM UTRocketMan is offline  
Reply With Quote
#28  

Blow-Hard
 
They fucking deserved to be nuked for what they pulled against our troops, and against the people of China, Korea, and SE Asia. Let us not forget the Bataan death march, the forced labor camps, they treated everyone they conquered with brutality.

The Japs were evil savages in WWII, they were murdering assholes. They deserved what they got, and they probably deserved much more, but thankfully, we made our point to them, wiping out two of their cities with nukes and firebombing many of the others.
__________________
I just work here.

Member of the [M]innesota Vikings Fan Club
Old 08-14-2008, 09:46 AM Blow-Hard is offline  
Reply With Quote
#29  

ieyeasu
 
ieyeasu's Avatar
 
"Unconditional Surrender" made it necessary, probably.
__________________
www.pizzasaucerecipe.org
Old 08-14-2008, 11:09 AM ieyeasu is offline  
Reply With Quote
#30  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:32 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.