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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
Does tolerating people who believe different mean teaching creationism in science class?

I'm not looking for a full curriculum on a belief that can be easily summed up in one sentence, I'm just looking for that sentence. If you believe that causes more harm than simply ignoring it exists, then I guess ignorance is bliss.

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Does it mean supporting those who attempt belittle the scientific body in order to protect their own beliefs?


Supporting /= Accepting reality

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Originally Posted by MentallyInept View Post
Because religious beliefs have no place in public schools. They are designed to be secular. They are not there to teach spirituality.

That is what the churches/mosques/temples are for.

Creationism does not have to be religious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
There doesn't have to be "proof of harm to the children"

With all the people in here saying it'll cause more harm than good, yes, I need proof of that, because it sounds like speculation typical of the radical Left.

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Backdoor attempts by the goddamned religious lobby to give Christian creation myths "equal time" with it have been found unconstitutional time and again for decades since.
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Why is it so important to you to win the empty victory that a demonstrably false idea be given equal time in public education?
Show me where I posted in this thread that creationism deserves as equal a time in the classroom as evolution. I think you need to re-read my posts before you jump on the flaming bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Opajew View Post
I think that "Theory" only has one definition. Also, Size 7.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

Definition 2.

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Originally Posted by jkrowling View Post
well that's it, i'm just going to laugh at everything else you say now because you've lost every iota of credibility



BURN HIM AT THE STAKE! HE DARES ASK THAT EVIDENCE BE PROVIDED TO BACK UP A CLAIM!

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Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
There was a study performed asking people of different countries whether “Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals,” was true, false, or if they were unsure.

Make an important note here: The United states is ranked second to fricken Turkey. Turkey is reported to be 99% muslim. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3432.htm THAT IS SAD

This is proof of a severe lack of understanding. There is no reason so many should be blinded from reality. Lets move forward from here though, not backward.

Of course. People need to receive a proper science education, and learn that evolution has way more evidence than a blind belief in magic sky men. You won't get any argument there. Still, I don't see why acknowledging that blind belief is poison to children (and your chart is still not evidence that mentioning/teaching it in the classroom is poison, by the way, try again), and I'm sure with a proper education, detailing the various finer points of evolution, they will come to see it as the most likely theory.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:12 AM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Bradd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Creationism does not have to be religious.

That is bull shit no matter how you slice it. There is no such thing as an nonreligious creationist. Since you seem to be so bound to the dictionary why don't you look up religion before you try to argue with that?

Creationism fills one with arrogance and scientific intolerance. It leads to people believing that they know divine truths when in fact there is nothing true about their beliefs (READ: THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE). In turn this leads to scientific ignorance, they will gladly debate observable truths using a fairytale as their evidence. I stand by the fact that I have not met one creationist who had a good understanding of scientific theory. Not even you who says they believe wholeheartedly in evolution understands the scientific method... I mean come on.

Scientific ignorance leads to the type of societal ills that I posted in the link above, you must have passed over it. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html If your not going to read all of it at least check out the results and the conclusion.

I sincerely believe, as it has been my experience, that when one learns to put their faith in something because a faith-based authority tells them to, it breeds people who cannot tell an objective fact (such as that taught in science) from everything else (belief, myth, delusion, motto, ideal, preference, notion, etc.). Stupidity is bad for society, and a belief in fairytale leads to an impenetrable and arrogant type of stupidity.

Furthermore creationists think that if they do come to believe some of the most wondrous things that the human race has had the pleasure of discovering, that they're going to go to hell. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU REASON WITH THAT?

Science on the other hand, evolves - it corrects it self through continual research and peer review. There is no absolute truths in science only constantly evolving observations based off of reality.

To use the line "some people believe in mythical creation stories." in a science class is going lead to nothing but confusion and more questions. There is no reason to give someone the introduction to something HUGE if you're not going to expand on it. It leaves the students wondering "what creation stories?" "who believes in this? do I believe in this? do my parents believe in this?" Maybe they do. But guess what, SCIENCE DOESN'T. And to give them the idea that science deals with anything not based in our reality is to mislead and to confuse, again leading to scientific ignorance and the societal ills posted about above.
Old 09-08-2008, 09:33 AM Bradd is offline  
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möbiustrip
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
I'm not looking for a full curriculum on a belief that can be easily summed up in one sentence, I'm just looking for that sentence.
Who is supposed to indulge your suggestion that the notion of an all-powerful supernatural force should be given the nod in science class, just in case no one's heard of it?

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If you believe that causes more harm than simply ignoring it exists, then I guess ignorance is bliss.
Aw, shucks, Wally.

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Creationism does not have to be religious.
and...and neither does God! For some, God is your own personal, uh... so maybe we're the Creator! If you think about it!

I can't seem to get my FOOT in this DOOR!

HELP HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!

Quote:
Show me where I posted in this thread that creationism deserves as equal a time in the classroom as evolution. I think you need to re-read my posts before you jump on the flaming bandwagon.
It's the creation lobby's stated goal. I believe their actual motive, as witnessed by history, their own rhetoric, and the "creation museum," goes to the eradication of science as we know it -- that is, anything they decide contradicts the Bible.

You claim to want an empty concession to this lobby, with an endless string of half-hearted protests. You're apparently content to be backed into a corner ("just one sentence!") as long as you win some ground.

Quote:
Of course. People need to receive a proper science education, and learn that evolution has way more evidence than a blind belief in magic sky men. You won't get any argument there. Still, I don't see why acknowledging that blind belief is poison to children ...I'm sure with a proper education, detailing the various finer points of evolution, they will come to see it as the most likely theory.
Let's clear the air. You're a Christian and also a liar and no one is interested in your Trojan horse evangelizing.

We've seen it before. You can quit tap-dancing already.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:52 AM möbiustrip is offline  
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jkrowling
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
I'


BURN HIM AT THE STAKE! HE DARES ASK THAT EVIDENCE BE PROVIDED TO BACK UP A CLAIM!

.

Have you even asked this of yourself?

Are you so ignorant that you can't think of the myriad of ways I could turn this back in your face?

Burning at the stake is a little strong, but I do hope people like you will relegate yourselves to small intentional farming communities so my children will have the benefit of growing up without ever knowing or being in any way affected by your religious brainwashing garbage. Except maybe to buy some of your organic arugula.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:41 PM jkrowling is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
That is bull shit no matter how you slice it. There is no such thing as an nonreligious creationist.

Wrong.

Say I believe that we are a society "set up" by an advanced civilization. Non-religious creationism.


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Creationism fills one with arrogance and scientific intolerance. It leads to people believing that they know divine truths when in fact there is nothing true about their beliefs (READ: THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE).
Of course. Which is why they should learn about Evolution.

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In turn this leads to scientific ignorance, they will gladly debate observable truths using a fairytale as their evidence. I stand by the fact that I have not met one creationist who had a good understanding of scientific theory.
Of course.

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Not even you who says they believe wholeheartedly in evolution understands the scientific method... I mean come on.
I don't understand the scientific method because "theory" doesn't always follow it, something you don't care to admit?

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Scientific ignorance leads to the type of societal ills that I posted in the link above, you must have passed over it. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html If your not going to read all of it at least check out the results and the conclusion.
But it doesn't prove what I asked you to prove. Your statistics do not prove that mere exposure to creationism causes lower test scores, it just proves that people who receive a one-sided, creationist-only education contribute to those societal ills. Of course people who believe things like that become medievally closed-minded.

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I sincerely believe, as it has been my experience, that when one learns to put their faith in something because a faith-based authority tells them to, it breeds people who cannot tell an objective fact (such as that taught in science) from everything else (belief, myth, delusion, motto, ideal, preference, notion, etc.). Stupidity is bad for society, and a belief in fairytale leads to an impenetrable and arrogant type of stupidity.
I agree. Exposure /= Creationist-only education, though. You can't pretend it doesn't exist to make it go away.

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Furthermore creationists think that if they do come to believe some of the most wondrous things that the human race has had the pleasure of discovering, that they're going to go to hell. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU REASON WITH THAT?
Man how I wish you would answer my question about your religious views earlier.

Science on the other hand, evolves - it corrects it self through continual research and peer review. There is no absolute truths in science only constantly evolving observations based off of reality.

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To use the line "some people believe in mythical creation stories." in a science class is going lead to nothing but confusion and more questions.
Here we go again. Proof or speculation

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There is no reason to give someone the introduction to something HUGE if you're not going to expand on it. It leaves the students wondering "what creation stories?" "who believes in this? do I believe in this? do my parents believe in this?" Maybe they do. But guess what, SCIENCE DOESN'T. And to give them the idea that science deals with anything not based in our reality is to mislead and to confuse, again leading to scientific ignorance and the societal ills posted about above.
Well then, why not have a section of class tailored to dispelling Creationist myths so they can go home and tell their parents they're wrong with facts on their side? I think that would be better than ignoring it altogether to have the child then go home and swear to his parents that the school is wrong and that even though he has to learn Evolution for school, the society he is in will never accept it. Ignoring the problem won't work.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:45 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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jkrowling
 
Wait a minute, are you seriously trying to say that you don't really believe in creationism, and you're all for kids disproving it in school, but yet, you're taking the argument this far?

You're actually for anti-creationism education in public school, but you think it's OK on the same coin to 'learn both' as you stated earlier?

I'm looking at this in particular:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Until it can be disproven, I don't see why it isn't worth mentioning. I don't see why even acknowledging that Evolution has not been proven and some do not believe it is literally poison to the mind of a high schooler. Again, we all learned about the Egyptian Gods in middle school, and we didn't go into churches and ask them why they don't believe in Ra.

Just curious, are you Athiest?

Bad analogy, the vast majority of our own country doesn't believe in Ra. And evolution isn't taught as proven, it's taught as the only good theory we have.

It appears to me that you are attempting to slide out of admitting you are a creationist, realizing that you may have just nearly gotten your ass handed. If that isn't the case, what is?
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Last edited by jkrowling; 09-08-2008 at 01:54 PM..
Old 09-08-2008, 01:48 PM jkrowling is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
Who is supposed to indulge your suggestion that the notion of an all-powerful supernatural force should be given the nod in science class, just in case no one's heard of it?

Non-biased point of view, instead of hoping a problem will go away if you ignore it.


Quote:
It's the creation lobby's stated goal.
But not mine, and not one I advocate on their behalf. Know the difference before you put words in my mouth.

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You claim to want an empty concession to this lobby, with an endless string of half-hearted protests. You're apparently content to be backed into a corner ("just one sentence!") as long as you win some ground.
Backed into a corner with a group of people with pitchforks and torches urging me never to utter "Creationism" again else off with my head.

Acknowledging the problem and combating it with facts is the cure, not ignorance.

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Let's clear the air. You're a Christian


I have no evidence to believe that a Magic Sky Man© exists, nor any evidence to suggest that he doesn't exist. I'm not that dense.

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and also a liar
How so?

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and no one is interested in your Trojan horse evangelizing.
BURN THE HERETIC! BY MEANS OF A DESIRE TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT WE FIGHT AGAINST HE CONSPIRES TO CONVERT US ALL TO THE EVIL WAY!
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:51 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Straw Man
RuHo
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nonreligious creationism

That's how retarded he is. Looks like ry_goody has met his match
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:52 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Bradd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
nonreligious creationism

That's how retarded he is. Looks like ry_goody has met his match

Belief through manipulation. Pathetic.
Old 09-08-2008, 01:56 PM Bradd is offline  
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jkrowling
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
What if I chose to believe that the primordial soup was spiked by an alien race? HOLY SHIT I STARTED A NEW RELIGION!

What if you? What if you really do believe?



What do you really believe? Don't dodge it.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:59 PM jkrowling is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Originally Posted by jkrowling View Post
Have you even asked this of yourself?

Are you so ignorant that you can't think of the myriad of ways I could turn this back in your face?

Burning at the stake is a little strong, but I do hope people like you will relegate yourselves to small intentional farming communities so my children will have the benefit of growing up without ever knowing or being in any way affected by your religious brainwashing garbage. Except maybe to buy some of your organic arugula.

...what

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrowling View Post
Wait a minute, are you seriously trying to say that you don't really believe in creationism, and you're all for kids disproving it in school, but yet, you're taking the argument this far?

You're actually for anti-creationism education in public school, but you think it's OK on the same coin to 'learn both' as you stated earlier?

Reread my quote that caused such a huge fuss over the evolutionary fundamentalists here:

Quote:
Teaching an alternate point of view, however wrong it is, is not detrimental to society.
That was skewed into "He wants to mandate cross-country trips to the Creation Museum for every child in America," along with the insistance that the uttering of the word "Creationism" in classrooms will make that school's average ACT score drop by half.

I've been saying all along that Creationism needs to be addressed, gone over, and combated with facts in schools. It's the only way to ensure that Jimmy, who learns Evolution at home but grew up with parents, friends, and a church that only believe in Creationism, will be able to fully understand how wrong the belief is, and address each Creationist talking point with its factual Evolutionary argument.

The EvoFundies here would rather creationism never be mentioned in science classrooms (NOT SCIENCE!11), and would rather cover their ears and scream than take the time to empower kids with the knowledge they need to sort out fact from fiction in their head by walking them through exactly why Evolution fits and Creationism ignores all of that.

But no, just keep calling me a "Christian Trojan Horse Creationist." It's hilarious.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:00 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Bradd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Here we go again. Proof or speculation
How about when you prove your speculation we can talk about it in the science class room. Until then it has no place.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
Well then, why not have a section of class tailored to dispelling Creationist myths so they can go home and tell their parents they're wrong with facts on their side? I think that would be better than ignoring it altogether to have the child then go home and swear to his parents that the school is wrong and that even though he has to learn Evolution for school, the society he is in will never accept it. Ignoring the problem won't work.
You can not dispel something you can not disprove. You can always say "God did it". There is no fact that will combat that. There is no way around it. You can't test it, you can't disprove it, and there for, ITS NOT SCIENCE.

Remember Mr. Greg, we're all atheists to the religions of the world, some of us are just comfortable going one religion further.
Old 09-08-2008, 02:05 PM Bradd is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrowling View Post
What if you? What if you really do believe?



What do you really believe? Don't dodge it.

I believe we were all turtles that were touched by radioactive slime in a sewer, and mutated into bipedal ninjas.



Of course I believe in Evolution. I don't purge my mind of every other possibility and pretend they don't exist, though.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:06 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Mr. Greg
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Originally Posted by Bradd View Post
How about when you prove your speculation we can talk about it in the science class room. Until then it has no place.

You people seriously believe I'm a Creationist. BURN THE ONE WHO SPEAKS THE WORD! HE MUST BE ONE OF THEM!



Quote:
You can not dispel something you can not disprove. [SIZE="5"]You can always say "God did it". There is no fact that will combat that./SIZE] There is no way around it. Which brings me to the point I have made over and over, THAT IS NOT SCIENCE.
Of course you can't prove Evolution is truth to someone, Creationist or not. What they believe is their decision. The Creationism movement has their gripes with evolution though, and it's the job of evolutionists to educate them and tell them why they're wrong, not just say they're wrong and tell them to read a book to find out why.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:10 PM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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Am I missing something?

Fact. Just 29 percent of Americans approve of how President Bush is handling his job.


.


Fact. John McCain has voted with George Bush 90 percent of the time.


.


Watch & Listen

In his own words... "I disagree with what the majority of the American people want."

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


So half of Americans support a candidate that votes 90 percent of the time the same as a president with a 29% approval rating...?


We are so collectively dumbed down and stupid at this point our collective behavior is bluntly insane.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:24 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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