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ry_goody
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
I don't care what religion you are, all of them (the big three that is) claim that god created the universe and that he is all-powerful.

Let's get one thing straight - if these two things are facts, then it is also a fact that everything is pre-destined and there is no point in God judging people (heaven/hell) because he has already predestined you to either go to heaven or hell.

I do believe god created the universe and I also believe that every action in a persons life is pre-destined.

however, I don't believe in any religion and think religion is just retarded
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Old 05-15-2004, 01:28 PM ry_goody is offline  
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PopeKevinI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
You cannot "abridge" free will, you learning disabled lilliputian.

Well, that's the last time I borrow a term from the other side of the fence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
Telling someone not to do something, is different from physically preventing them. The first one is not a contradiction of free will, the second, is.

My point is that the second does not negate free will for the child's entire life. Outside of those few seconds where the child is prevented from potentially harming himself, he has complete freedom. What you seem to be saying is that if you EVER interfere in the choice-making of a person, free will never existed at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
You're an imbecile. Anarchy =/= Free will. Free will is simply the fundamental right of a human to choose a course of action. He will suffer the consequences of his action, as he necessarily must in a causal universe, but be it good or bad, he can CHOOSE whether or not to pay taxes.

You suck at comprehending analogies. Either that or you choose not to.

I'm not saying that the American government has the power to infringe on our free will. I'm saying that the government of a "free" nation requires certain things of its citizenship that reduce freedom by the simple fact that the people are forced to comply (or face consequences). We are still perfectly free in many other aspects, but not when it comes to taxes.

Still too complicated? I'll break it down for you. In that analogy:

Freedom = free will
American government = God
Taxation = Anything which might contradict free will

But I suspect you already knew that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
By saying that God sometimes prevents us from making even a basic, fundamental choice, you are saying we have no free will. There is no gray here. Free will is an all or nothing clause.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Free will is the philosophical doctrine that our choices are, ultimately, "up to us". Consequently, an unfree action must be somehow "up to" something else.
By that rather basic definition, we have free will so long as our choices are truly ours to make. Only when choices are made for us is that free will taken away--and we become free again once the choices become ours again.

Now take your pedantic flames and go play elsewhere.
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Old 05-15-2004, 01:30 PM PopeKevinI is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
You cannot "abridge" free will, you learning disabled lilliputian.



.

a·bridge ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-brj)
tr.v. a·bridged, a·bridg·ing, a·bridg·es

1. To reduce the length of (a written text); condense.
2. To cut short; curtail. See Synonyms at shorten.


cur·tail ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-tl)
tr.v. cur·tailed, cur·tail·ing, cur·tails

To cut short or reduce. See Synonyms at shorten.


re·duce ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ds, -dys)
v. re·duced, re·duc·ing, re·duc·es
v. tr.

1. To bring down, as in extent, amount, or degree; diminish. See Synonyms at decrease.
2. To bring to a humbler, weaker, difficult, or forced state or condition; especially:
1. To gain control of; conquer: “a design to reduce them under absolute despotism” (Declaration of Independence).
2. To subject to destruction: Enemy bombers reduced the city to rubble.
3. To weaken bodily: was reduced almost to emaciation.
4. To sap the spirit or mental energy of.
5. To compel to desperate acts: The Depression reduced many to begging on street corners.
6. To lower in rank or grade. See Synonyms at demote.
7. To powder or pulverize.
8. To thin (paint) with a solvent.
3. To lower the price of: The store has drastically reduced winter coats.
4. To put in order or arrange systematically.
5. To separate into orderly components by analysis.
6. Chemistry.
1. To decrease the valence of (an atom) by adding electrons.
2. To remove oxygen from (a compound).
3. To add hydrogen to (a compound).
4. To change to a metallic state by removing nonmetallic constituents; smelt.
7. Mathematics. To simplify the form of (an expression, such as a fraction) without changing the value.
8. Medicine. To restore (a fractured or displaced body part) to a normal condition or position.


Would you prefer constrain?


con·strain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-strn)
tr.v. con·strained, con·strain·ing, con·strains

1. To compel by physical, moral, or circumstantial force; oblige: felt constrained to object. See Synonyms at force.
2. To keep within close bounds; confine: a life that had been constrained by habit to the same few activities and friends.
3. To inhibit or restrain; hold back: “Failing to control the growth of international debt will also constrain living standards” (Ronald Brownstein).
4. To produce in a forced or inhibited manner.

So Piss Off you microencephalic curmudgeon
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Last edited by TheMorlock; 05-15-2004 at 04:29 PM..
Old 05-15-2004, 04:25 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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#453  

Heil
 
Quote:
My point is that the second does not negate free will for the child's entire life.
If you negate free will once, you negate it for all time, you imbecile.

Quote:
Freedom = free will
American government = God
Taxation = Anything which might contradict free will
Your analogies suck more than the singularity of supermassive ry between your deflated nutbumpers, you kielbasa collidin' crash test dummy.

You cannot draw a parallel between a "free society" and "free will", because the two are wholly unrelated concepts. Nice try though, come again.

Quote:
By that rather basic definition, we have free will so long as our choices are truly ours to make. Only when choices are made for us is that free will taken away--and we become free again once the choices become ours again
Good job not reading the definition, dumbfuck.

In your definition, it states that free will is the doctrine where ALL CHOICES are ultimately left up to the individual. If you negate it even ONCE, then you do NOT have free will.

Listen you barebacked human pummel horse, when you say that free will is a characteristic of man, then by the Law of Identity, he must possess free will ALL THE TIME. Abridge it once, and then it is no longer a fundamental attribute of man.

TheMorlock, thanks for wasting my time with a completely useless post.
Old 05-18-2004, 07:15 PM Heil is offline  
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Chomp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
I don't care what religion you are, all of them (the big three that is) claim that god created the universe and that he is all-powerful.

Let's get one thing straight - if these two things are facts, then it is also a fact that everything is pre-destined and there is no point in God judging people (heaven/hell) because he has already predestined you to either go to heaven or hell.

THAT, my friends, is a major logical flaw in organized religion (again, big three, mostly), and the reason I scoff at those who follow it.


I don't see the logic behind your assumption. God is all powerful and He has the power to know everything, but He excercises that power. Think about this: God tested Abraham; he told him to take his firstborn and sacrifice him. When God saw that Abraham was really going to kill his son, He found out that Abraham was loyal.

If God did not excercise his omniscience, he would have already known what Abraham would have done and thus, the 'test' would be a big joke.

Now I can't say much about the other "big two" religions, but as far as Christianity is concerned, you aren't predestained (otherwise there's no free will) and God has the ability to know all, but uses discretion in His foreseeing.


I think your theory just fell apart.
Old 05-19-2004, 11:06 PM Chomp is offline  
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ry_goody
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomp
I don't see the logic behind your assumption. God is all powerful and He has the power to know everything, but He excercises that power. Think about this: God tested Abraham; he told him to take his firstborn and sacrifice him. When God saw that Abraham was really going to kill his son, He found out that Abraham was loyal.

If God did not excercise his omniscience, he would have already known what Abraham would have done and thus, the 'test' would be a big joke.

Now I can't say much about the other "big two" religions, but as far as Christianity is concerned, you aren't predestained (otherwise there's no free will) and God has the ability to know all, but uses discretion in His foreseeing.


I think your theory just fell apart.


Think of it this way. I am going to make a relation to computers so it makes better sense. God made the mind of a human, much how Intel makes the mind (cpu) of the computer. The mind is based off of a known and predictable design. You can calculate the outcome of anything put in. If god truly created each individual human and their mind then he knows the design in their mind and the outcome it would give from any given input. Much how a programmer knows what the cpu will output from his given input.

So in this view, god designed the mind of every human purposefully and intentially and anything that human does is a result of gods will because it ultimately goes back to god's design of their brain. If there is an unloyal human, god designed him to be that way. The human brain is not something that just randomly came about, god designed it, so god chose whether or not you would be loyal. If you do not believe that god would design a brain to be unloyal to him, then something other than or above god designed that brain to be unloyal to god.

And also under this view, since any outcome can be predicted from an input, much like a computer. Then the outcomes are obviously not random, but rather coherent and brought about consecutively in a predictable pattern. Meaning that the future is predestined, but only predictable by the one who designed the human minds.
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Old 05-20-2004, 02:46 AM ry_goody is offline  
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Chomp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ry_goody
Think of it this way. I am going to make a relation to computers so it makes better sense. God made the mind of a human, much how Intel makes the mind (cpu) of the computer. The mind is based off of a known and predictable design. You can calculate the outcome of anything put in. If god truly created each individual human and their mind then he knows the design in their mind and the outcome it would give from any given input. Much how a programmer knows what the cpu will output from his given input.

So in this view, god designed the mind of every human purposefully and intentially and anything that human does is a result of gods will because it ultimately goes back to god's design of their brain. If there is an unloyal human, god designed him to be that way. The human brain is not something that just randomly came about, god designed it, so god chose whether or not you would be loyal. If you do not believe that god would design a brain to be unloyal to him, then something other than or above god designed that brain to be unloyal to god.

And also under this view, since any outcome can be predicted from an input, much like a computer. Then the outcomes are obviously not random, but rather coherent and brought about consecutively in a predictable pattern. Meaning that the future is predestined, but only predictable by the one who designed the human minds.






That was a good illustration, but it has one fatal flaw: It doesn't apply to this situation.

Your analogy that the computer will produce a predictable output conflicts with free will. A computer will do what it is told; it can't choose to do what it wants to.

True, God created the mind in great detail, but he also gave us the capacity to do good or bad, right or wrong. God wants our worship, but if he 'programmed' us to worship him, then we'd be robots.

Think of it this way: Pretend you are God, and humans are your dog. You give the dog some rules (ie, "don't dig holes in the backyard), much as God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the certain tree. You haven't programmed the dog to only do one thing or the other. You simply know that you want him to obey you, but you haven't forced him in any way to only obey you.

If God 'programmed' everything and everyone, then he would have purposely caused Adam and Eve to sin, he would have caused Satan to rebel and become evil (he wasn't always that way you know), and all the bad in the world would have been caused by God. It would also mean that there was a flaw in all of God's creation.


Despite your analogy, we are not programmed, we have free will. True, we have predictable actions, especially predictable by God. God CAN know exactly what each of us will do at any point in our lives, 10 years from now, or 30 years from now. However, as I meantioned before, he uses discretion in foreseeing what he wants. Nevertheless, the fact that he can foresee or predict doesn't mean that he caused (''programmed'') that thing to happen.
Old 05-20-2004, 04:49 PM Chomp is offline  
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xagent
 
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Old 05-20-2004, 05:21 PM xagent is offline  
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peniswart
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Please, I beg of you, read the book that I posted in the Recommended Reading List (God?: A Debate between a Christian and an Atheist) before we have any more religious discussion in the Pit! It's not a comprehensive study, but it definitely would give us a higher common ground to start from than we have now.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:40 PM peniswart is offline  
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#459  

Savenor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
Why was I attacked for the first 15 pages of this thread for trying to explain exactly what you guys are proving (much more eloquently than I, mind you)?

I would just like to point out that even though these fuckers hammered me with evasion and , you guys are basically saying what I was saying. So maybe throw some my way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
All I'm saying is, the first post in this thread summarizes what you guys are debating right now. And yet I was attacked (mostly ad hominem) for it. That's all I'm saying.

WHAT!?!?!? Let me quote parts of nearly every single FUCKING post you made in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
I grow weary of "debating" with this buffoon calling himself deltabourne. Anybody want to have an actual debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
The burden of proof lies with the accuser you fucking idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
keep praying, perhaps one day you will stop being such an idiot
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
The funniest thing about reading your posts is watching you get backed into a corner and start making baseless statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
FUCKING RETARD

I'm sick of dealing with you you fucking moron, it's like talking to a 6 year old red headed step child. You just refuse to get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
I CANNOT OVERESTIMATE THE FRUSTRATION I AM FEELING WHILST READING THIS. YOU SIR ARE A FUCKING RETARD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
Seems quite paradoxical to me, moron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
Because, you dipshit, by creating things the way he did, he predestined everything to be as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
You are an utter idiot and I regret wasting the time spent to read your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike27
That is basically a version of my point, dipshit.

I stopped at the ninth page, but mostly every other post you made up until now has stuff like that in it. How the fuck can you possibly say you are being attacked when you say stuff like this in all your posts? Everytime someone comes up with an argument (no matter how odd or logical it may seem) you refuse to debate it, attack them and then restate your retarded argument over and over.

FUCK YOU

Last edited by Savenor; 05-23-2004 at 07:38 PM..
Old 05-23-2004, 07:34 PM Savenor is offline  
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#460  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heil
If you negate free will once, you negate it for all time, you imbecile.



Your analogies suck more than the singularity of supermassive ry between your deflated nutbumpers, you kielbasa collidin' crash test dummy.

You cannot draw a parallel between a "free society" and "free will", because the two are wholly unrelated concepts. Nice try though, come again.



Good job not reading the definition, dumbfuck.

In your definition, it states that free will is the doctrine where ALL CHOICES are ultimately left up to the individual. If you negate it even ONCE, then you do NOT have free will.

Listen you barebacked human pummel horse, when you say that free will is a characteristic of man, then by the Law of Identity, he must possess free will ALL THE TIME. Abridge it once, and then it is no longer a fundamental attribute of man.

TheMorlock, thanks for wasting my time with a completely useless post.


ooohhhh scary the LAW OF IDENTITY. Human free will by it's very nature is abridged you pustulant boil an a presapients ass. With or without a god. You see the very nature of being a finite creature with built in limits constrains us. Hey I want to read the minds of an alien species 2000 light years away. Oh wait I can't!! But I choose to do so!!! But Oh wait I can't because I am not an omniscient god

Get a clue butt stain.
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Old 05-23-2004, 07:57 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:22 AM xagent is offline  
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#462  

ry_goody
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomp
That was a good illustration, but it has one fatal flaw: It doesn't apply to this situation.

Your analogy that the computer will produce a predictable output conflicts with free will. A computer will do what it is told; it can't choose to do what it wants to.

True, God created the mind in great detail, but he also gave us the capacity to do good or bad, right or wrong. God wants our worship, but if he 'programmed' us to worship him, then we'd be robots.

Think of it this way: Pretend you are God, and humans are your dog. You give the dog some rules (ie, "don't dig holes in the backyard), much as God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the certain tree. You haven't programmed the dog to only do one thing or the other. You simply know that you want him to obey you, but you haven't forced him in any way to only obey you.

If God 'programmed' everything and everyone, then he would have purposely caused Adam and Eve to sin, he would have caused Satan to rebel and become evil (he wasn't always that way you know), and all the bad in the world would have been caused by God. It would also mean that there was a flaw in all of God's creation.


Despite your analogy, we are not programmed, we have free will. True, we have predictable actions, especially predictable by God. God CAN know exactly what each of us will do at any point in our lives, 10 years from now, or 30 years from now. However, as I meantioned before, he uses discretion in foreseeing what he wants. Nevertheless, the fact that he can foresee or predict doesn't mean that he caused (''programmed'') that thing to happen.


(first) I do understand your point of view and don't intend to change it as this subject is HIGHLY opinion. But I don't think you understand mine fully.

I have done quite a bit of programming in my short life, some of which was AI programming. When I thought about the AI that I programmed I realized that, while I do not see my AI's actions as free will, it however could see it's actions as free will. It does not have the ability to see the code that runs it, much how we still do not understand how our brains work. When something runs around the corner and shoots my AI, it reacts. That reaction seems completely natural to it, it carried out it's action, it believed it's action is freewill only because it does not have the ability to see the other possible reactions it could have carried out. Hopefully we can agree that my AI does not have freewill because everything it does, I made it do based on what input it got. Now, if I were to get shotl irl I would probably yell "shit" or fall down or something. But there are so many possible reactions I could have to getting shot, theoretically there could an infinite number of possible reactions if you believe the universe is infinite. However, right now I can only fathom a limited number of reactions to getting shot. The fact that I can only fathom so many possible reactions out of an infinite number of reactions means that I do not have freewill. Much how my AI can only carry out the actions I coded into, I can only carry out the actions I myself have coded into me. Now I can code my AI to have 1000's, even millions of different reactions to any given input. Think of in the game "The Sims", your sim will walk along, stand and take a shit right on the floor, look around and walk off. Thats seems pretty random to us, it could even seem like that sim had freewill, I mean it did it on it's own, right? Well I guarantee you, anything that sim does is not random to the programmer. Even if that programmer used a random function, computers cannot generate true random. I do not believe random exsists. I believe random is only the result of too many variables for the human mind to follow, random is no more an explanation to things we don't understand than god is.
Hm, I don't know how exactly to close this up with a solid conclusion, but hopefully you understand my view.
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:56 AM ry_goody is offline  
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