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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dummyaccount View Post
Again, where was steven jones proven wrong in his studies?

Stephen Jones is in disagreement with not only the largest civil engineering organizations in the WORLD, but with the vast majority of experts on civil engineering. That said, there's a lot of reason to question what Jones says. Here's why:

Quote:
The paper has been the center of controversy both for its content and its claims to scientific rigor. [15][16] Jones' early critics included members of BYU's engineering faculty[17] and shortly after he made his views public, the BYU College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences and the faculty of structural engineering issued statements in which they distanced themselves from Jones' work. They noted that Jones' "hypotheses and interpretations of evidence were being questioned by scholars and practitioners", and expressed doubts about whether they had been "submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review."[18]

Jones has always maintained that the paper was peer-reviewed prior to publication, though it has never been published in an independent peer-reviewed journal. On September 7, 2006, Jones removed his paper from BYU's website at the request of administrators and was placed on paid leave.[19] The university cited its concern about the "increasingly speculative and accusatory nature" of Jones' work and the fact it had "not been published in appropriate scientific venues" as reasons for putting him under review.[20] The review was supposed to be three-tiered, with the school's administration, the College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences and the Physics Department involved.[21] This action drew criticism from the American Association of University Professors and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. Both organizations are long time critics of BYU's record on academic freedom.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

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Before one (especially students) supports such a conspiracy theory, they should investigate all details of the theory. To me a practicing structural engineer of 57 continuous years (1941-1998), Professor Jones' presentations are very disturbing.
From BYU engineer: http://www.netxnews.net/vnews/displa.../443801bdadd6e

And:

Quote:
He's a physicist, not an engineer," MIT's Eagar said. "Dr. Jones brought a lot of academic credibility to these arguments, but I've read through his paper and on each point it has not taken me more than five minutes to study it and come up with a credible scientific reply."
For example, the puffs of smoke could have been air and dust generated as pieces of the floors collapsed, or by cement collapsing, which regularly causes horizontal puffs of dust. Eagar also said it is accepted science that the jet fuel burned hot enough in the twin towers to collapse them.
"I haven't seen anything from Dr. Jones or anyone else (in the 9/11 truth movement) that can't be discredited."
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645200098,00.html

And here's another genius quote from someone I'm sure you're familiar with:

Quote:
What is ironic about his attitude toward "unfinished research" is that he repeatedly characterizes his own studies of the use of thermite (in a sulfur-enhanced version known as "thermate") as both preliminary and incomplete. If that is the case, then by his own standard, there is a serious question whether his own research is ready for prime time! It is also worth mention that he has revised his basic paper on numerous occasions, which, to the best of my knowledge, have not been subject to additional peer review. If we only mention or discuss finished research on st911.org, there is a serious question whether Steve's work properly qualifies for inclusion in the journal he edits, much less the web site.

.........

To the best of my knowledge, Steve has found support among perhaps ten or twelve members of Scholars who are active on the forum. Since our current membership approximates 400, this does not appear to be the majority view. Splinter groups often form when dealing with complex and controversial issues, especially when they have ramifications of a political kind. Everyone who has joined Scholars has joined with the current web site and management of st911.org. If he thinks that he can do better, then I encourage him to resign from Scholars and create his own site. But he should not attempt to take control of a site that I created and maintain, which would display the virtues of theft over honest toil. Those who have opinions they want to express about all this can email hardevidence@gmail.com or jfetzer@d.umn.edu.
Who was this nay-sayer?

Quote:
James H. Fetzer
Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/O...erToJones.html

Sounds like even his own people aren't to thrilled with him. But go ahead, believe whatever you want. You've clearly got it right.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:10 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by dummyaccount View Post
You're telling me fire and gravity pulverize a building into dust? not partial of the building, the WHOLE building.

GROSS OVER-SIMPLIFICATION. I've been over this several times already.

I want to know, what are your engineering qualifications? Everything I've seen you post here has been nothing short of rubbish. You've failed to present anything of value to the discussion.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:14 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dummyaccount View Post
Steven Jones found Thermate evidence

this video was from 4/14/07

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

Quote:
Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Stellar research, really. I'm sorry, that source has credibility. Would it be preferable for you if I got Bozo the clown's opinion on it?

Ok, you know what? I think it's time I play your stupid game. Show me all the times in the history of the world where demolitions have been conducted using thermite and thermite alone. I'm listening.

I'm really curious, do you even know what thermite is?
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Last edited by Tom Kazansky; 05-21-2007 at 09:36 AM..
Old 05-21-2007, 09:23 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dummyaccount View Post
Oh? You're not ignoring phyiscs? Please explain how/why WTC 1&2 fell the way it did. Don't just say gravity, because we all know the mass under the building didn't just all of the sudden move out of the way. Please explain something NIST can't even explain.

How did the NIST not explain that? ASCE published a paper on the topic years ago.

Ok, I want you to do me a favour. Grab a structural mechanics textbook and read up on the sections discussing buckling and impact loading. Then I want you to grab a civil engineering textbook and read about factors of safety. Then I want you to grab a materials science textbook and read about the thermal properties of steel. Combine all that and you'll have your answer. The reason I'm asking you to do this is because the kinds of things you've been saying have proven to me you don't have a clue about anything about what you're talking about here.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:26 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineStorm View Post
Fuck the whole WTC conspiracy .

There's just one single thing that's suspicious, and that's the seperate building going down in a controlled explosion. Who the fuck know what that was all about. Not covered in the media either, but clear footage is there.

But bombs attached to a plane and all, -- whatever the fuck ya wanna believe in.

WTC7 wasn't a controlled demolition. The pictures those retards aren't showing you involve a 10-story hole on the opposite side of the building.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:29 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fittysix View Post
Yes, you do, and that's why physicists need to be extremely good at mathematics, you know what mathlete does for a living?.
Obviously you would need the material properties of the materials present, and the ability to read the building diagram, but once given that it's all physics, which is more in the realm of the physicist than the engineer.

Engineers don't understand the properties of the materials in their designs? K, my four years of studying the subject says otherwise.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:31 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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WTC7 wasn't a controlled demolition. The pictures those retards aren't showing you involve a 10-story hole on the opposite side of the building.

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Old 05-21-2007, 10:15 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Totally proves Bush did it.
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Old 05-21-2007, 06:40 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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dummyaccount
 
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So which is it? Did it fall faster than freefall or take much longer than 12? Now this is getting silly. I'm going to have to believe the peer reviewed scientists on this one.

It should have taken longer for it to do a gravitational collapse, and no where near the freefall speed because of the resistance from air and the mass below.

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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
And others have concluded that it was likely that the WTC 1 and 2 towers would have eventually collapsed regardless of the fires and any potential weakening they may have added. No one has ever said that the steel supports melted in the fires from the planes. Steel loses between 20% and 50% of its strength before it melts into a liquid. It also expands with heat which can generate tremendous forces. Steel melting is a "truther" straw man.

Still begs the question, how is the steel melted? From the energy of the collapse?!

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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
And I don't know about professor morrone but the first line of his paper is wrong so I can't expect the rest to get much better.
I'm glad to see you're so open minded. Oh please enlighten us on how he is wrong. Did NIST or anyone prove that explosives wasn't used for WTC 1, 2 or 7? Even Frank Greening admits that his caluation for the fall of the world trade center doesn't prove explosives wasn't used.

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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Explosives don't produce molten steel. Explosives use overpressure to break things. The timescale in which they operate is far too small for the heat of the explosive to melt the material. Also, at no point in the paper does he explain how explosives would have caused molten metal. Thermate is not an explosive.

Sure it does, if the explosives took place in the basement and the heat was trapped under it, it can produce molten steel. Thermite does not rely on air for it to get hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Also his calculations seem to rely on the idea that a single kilogram of steel dropped from the height of the WTC towers would not liquify from the force of gravity. This is silly, there was an entire building of concrete and steel to contemplate.

Are you suggesting a building collapse will make temps inside a building raise up to 2800F from gravity? Should we expect to find molten steel after every building collapse?
Old 05-21-2007, 07:08 PM dummyaccount is offline  
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dummyaccount
 
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Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post

This picture that's in the FEMA report and released by NIST is fake.
There's already a solid discussion on this photo here... http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...158966&Disp=96

and here

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281965/pg1
Old 05-21-2007, 07:17 PM dummyaccount is offline  
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Straw Man
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Call me a skeptic if you will, but somehow I think a forum thread in abovesecret dot com discussing poor photoshops doesn't sound very convincing. I know, they can tell by the pixels since they've seen a lot of shops in their days but seriously dude, that's weak.
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:23 PM Straw Man is offline  
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dummyaccount
 
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This picture that's in the FEMA report and released by NIST is fake.
There's already a solid discussion on this photo here... http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...158966&Disp=96

and here

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281965/pg1

edit: here's the first link

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...158966&Disp=96
Old 05-21-2007, 07:55 PM dummyaccount is offline  
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TheMorlock
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BWAhahhAHhahhahahha ha

We have another gravity penny guru. Do you have to share the penny with Postal?
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:22 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dummyaccount View Post
It should have taken longer for it to do a gravitational collapse, and no where near the freefall speed because of the resistance from air and the mass below.
I think you are overestimating the resistance of air at those speeds relative to that mass. Also, as the building was collapsing progressively the mass moving downward was ever increasing. The time necessary to crush the first floor near the impact site was the longest crush/resistance time, from there the falling mass accelerated as it gained even more mass and speed with each floor fallen.

Quote:
I'm glad to see you're so open minded. Oh please enlighten us on how he is wrong.
Explosives do not melt things. They use the velocity of expanding gasses to create overpressure which actually breaks though things. There are shaped charges that use specially arranged explosives to create a high velocity jet of molten metal to cut through things but even then the pressure and velocity of the material in the molten jet is what does the penetrating, not the heat. This is called hydrodynamic penetration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ped-charge.htm

A common cutting charge that would be used to cut steel supports in a building would be a linear shaped charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_...shaped_charges
http://www.dynawell.de/explosives_lsc.html

Quote:
Did NIST or anyone prove that explosives wasn't used for WTC 1, 2 or 7?
They found no evidence for that.
Quote:
Even Frank Greening admits that his caluation for the fall of the world trade center doesn't prove explosives wasn't used.
His calculations showed that for the buildings to fall the way they did was well within the realm of possibility. No explosives were necessary.

Quote:
Sure it does, if the explosives took place in the basement and the heat was trapped under it, it can produce molten steel. Thermite does not rely on air for it to get hot.
Thermite is not an explosive. It's an exothermic chemical reaction that produces molten iron from aluminum and iron oxide. It does not produce a violent explosion of expanding gases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

Quote:
Are you suggesting a building collapse will make temps inside a building raise up to 2800F from gravity? Should we expect to find molten steel after every building collapse?
The molten metal under the piles was probably the result of a number of forces and I don't know what they all were. Again, apples and oranges. The world record for the tallest building ever imploded is roughly one third the size of the WTC towers, also there were no airplanes and fires and other calamities happening simultaneously during that building implosion. I'm not sure what they expect to find after a building collapses as I'm not in the industry but I'm pretty sure they don't expect to find large amounts of molten metal as a result of the cutting charges they use to break the support structure of the building.

Here is video of the tallest building ever imploded, it was 440 feet tall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khD2gZkkSu0

Here is the second tallest at 380 feet tall(my favorite):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U4erFzhC-U

The Omega Radio Tower at 1200 feet tall was the tallest man made structure ever brought down:
http://www.controlled-demolition.com...20030314111623
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Last edited by pyramid; 05-21-2007 at 10:52 PM..
Old 05-21-2007, 10:30 PM pyramid is offline  
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dummyaccount
 
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I think you are overestimating the resistance of air at those speeds relative to that mass. Also, as the building was collapsing progressively the mass moving downward was ever increasing. The time necessary to crush the first floor near the impact site was the longest crush/resistance time, from there the falling mass accelerated as it gained even more mass and speed with each floor fallen.

Mass accelerated as it gained even more mass? The mass you speak of was being pulverize as it was coming down. Even the NIST report stayed away from the puzzling issues regarding collapse speeds, and the high velocities at which steel beams were ejected from the towers. Where is this energy coming from? Gravity?

In the ENTIRE NIST report, there is not ONE mention of the fall times, where their entire report is a "collapse initiation" hypothesis ONLY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Explosives do not melt things. They use the velocity of expanding gasses to create overpressure which actually breaks though things. There are shaped charges that use specially arranged explosives to create a high velocity jet of molten metal to cut through things but even then the pressure and velocity of the material in the molten jet is what does the penetrating, not the heat. This is called hydrodynamic penetration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ped-charge.htm

A common cutting charge that would be used to cut steel supports in a building would be a linear shaped charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_...shaped_charges
http://www.dynawell.de/explosives_lsc.html


They found no evidence for that.

His calculations showed that for the buildings to fall the way they did was well within the realm of possibility. No explosives were necessary.


Thermite is not an explosive. It's an exothermic chemical reaction that produces molten iron from aluminum and iron oxide. It does not produce a violent explosion of expanding gases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite


The molten metal under the piles was probably the result of a number of forces and I don't know what they all were. Again, apples and oranges.
Number of forces to melt steel? You've only suggested one force so far, gravity. No, gravity is insufficient to melt steel. Seriously, is anyone investigating this? Why don't people see this as a huge red flag since no one suggested the fires reached anywhere near 2800F on 9/11?
Old 05-22-2007, 03:38 AM dummyaccount is offline  
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