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möbiustrip
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
No it's not. It's in the corporation's interest to keep top talent whatever the cost because top talent makes the corporation more competitive. Yes, they want to spend as little as possible. Tough to do when another corporation outbids you for a top brain that just saved them a few million dollars via a process improvement.
This is idealistic. Your hiring contract says (1) all your valuable ideas are company property (2) upon termination, you can't work in your field, within X miles and/or Y months.

If you don't like the way they've chosen to interpret 1 or 2, their lawyers will be happy to discuss it until you're broke.

That's "competition."

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Old 06-24-2009, 11:08 AM möbiustrip is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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That is to say, people who drive vans have significant artificial negotiating power with people who own jets -- who, incidentally, can get out of whatever personal stake they have in the company. Pensioners can't.

How do you think that story ends?
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here or if you're trying to imply that union power is "artificial"


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UAW is showing you can't demand blood from a stone.
UAW reached several compromises with GM before the bankruptcy.
Old 06-24-2009, 02:32 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Yes they are true. For future reference, see: GM bankruptcy.
Ok let's take a look at the GM bankruptcy: The UAW is much reduced in number and power from it's apex in the 60's and 70's, it has less than a than a third of the members it did 1979. They made several compromises with GM regarding retired worker benefits. They make only slightly more than non-unionized plants although their benefits are also usually better. GM's bankruptcy was caused by a collapse in demand following a major financial crisis, not the UAW.

The facts do not support your claim.


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Oh come on. Not nearly to the degree of the North American auto companies, the unions of which by the way have managed to rape them into submission not only by demanding unreasonable compensation, but by setting labour policies that forced over-staffing. This isn't top secret information man, look it up! The UAW and CAW unions are the biggest joke running, and the current auto woes have only highlighted that even more than we already knew.
To take Japan for example The Confederation of Japanese Automobile Workers Unions is larger than the UAW by at least 200,000 members. The pay rate for the average worker is almost exactly the same. Retirement packages are not as large but this almost solely due to government healthcare which is much cheaper in Japan.



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Yes, "some".

And who wouldn't pick the union job? I'd love to be able to fuck up and do nothing all day and not worry about losing my job. As a matter of fact, I'd love to be able to do that AND be granted major pay and benefits at the same time to do it!
Considering you don't really seem to know that much about union statistics in the first place I'm inclined not to believe any of your anecdotes. The facts are that union jobs are better for the average person and the idea that they destroy industry is nonsense.
Old 06-24-2009, 02:56 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Yeah, that makes sense, because you know the company wont just say "fuck it" and move ALL operations overseas.

Do you even think before you write this shit? Why do you think the government gives incentives to corporations in the first place? The only way they can compete with countries like China that promise cheap non-union labour at 1/10th the cost is by offering corporate incentives to remain competitive here.

I can't believe I actually had to explain that.
Ok, they can move overseas and try to make a profit selling to Chinese, European, or other nations consumers, I really don't care. They will be replaced by new companies or union friendly companies will take their place. Having cheaper labour is worthless if you can't compete with high tariffs or even sell your products at all in the US market.

I don't think you understood my original point.
Old 06-24-2009, 03:05 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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No it's not. It's in the corporation's interest to keep top talent whatever the cost because top talent makes the corporation more competitive. Yes, they want to spend as little as possible. Tough to do when another corporation outbids you for a top brain that just saved them a few million dollars via a process improvement.
You're comparing management and engineers with blue collar workers.

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Unions in the past have established good legislation with regard to things like worker safety. Today, unions are a pathetic shadow of their former selves, and are currently corrupt, top-heavy corporations themselves.
Again if you look back in history you'll find this was a corporate talking point even very soon after unions where established and I'm no more inclined to believe it today.
Old 06-24-2009, 03:08 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
This is idealistic. Your hiring contract says (1) all your valuable ideas are company property (2) upon termination, you can't work in your field, within X miles and/or Y months.

If you don't like the way they've chosen to interpret 1 or 2, their lawyers will be happy to discuss it until you're broke.

That's "competition."

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Number 1, yes. Number 2, sometimes, maybe. I didn't sign a contract containing any details regarding where I can and cannont work, or for whom. As a matter of fact, I was in an environment where people were switching companies for the same job on the same site for a competitor. It's not unheard of. What you're saying is not necessarily wrong, but it's not correct all of the time. To deny labour is a market like any other is also untrue. Labour absolutely is a market, and is therefore affected by market fundamentals. The best product wins out, and people are always willing to pay a premium for it.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:06 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Ok let's take a look at the GM bankruptcy: The UAW is much reduced in number and power from it's apex in the 60's and 70's, it has less than a than a third of the members it did 1979. They made several compromises with GM regarding retired worker benefits. They make only slightly more than non-unionized plants although their benefits are also usually better. GM's bankruptcy was caused by a collapse in demand following a major financial crisis, not the UAW.

The facts do not support your claim.

That's blatantly false and you know it. UAW workers were getting compensated an extra $20/hour over and above their Japanese counter-parts within the United States, which from what I read could account for a difference in upwards of $500 per car. An extra $500 to cover for a company that people were already seeing as inferior is a hard pill to swallow. In a lot of ways, the UAW was a major contributing factor to GM's current woes, besides the obvious morons in the upper echelon.

You're also ignoring another thing. Not matter how many benefits the UAW cut, UAW workers were not leaving for similar jobs in other sectors, even with other unions, because they knew that even with the concessions they were giving up, they were still better compensated that other people in their position.

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To take Japan for example The Confederation of Japanese Automobile Workers Unions is larger than the UAW by at least 200,000 members. The pay rate for the average worker is almost exactly the same. Retirement packages are not as large but this almost solely due to government healthcare which is much cheaper in Japan.
.

Pay rate means fuck all, it's TOTAL COMPENSATION you have to look at. If government healthcare was making the Japanese unions that much cheaper, than how come government healthcare in Canada was not dropping the compensation gap between the CAW and Japanese-based manufacturers in a country that also carries comprehensive health care benefits from the government? According to your logic, the CAW should have been about the same with the employees of the Japanese companies, but they weren't. Why not?

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Considering you don't really seem to know that much about union statistics in the first place I'm inclined not to believe any of your anecdotes. The facts are that union jobs are better for the average person and the idea that they destroy industry is nonsense.

You shouldn't be passing judgement when you don't know anything about me. I've worked directly with a variety of different unions every day from the past 8 months and have borne witness to several efficiency related issues. I even have one of my foreman sneaking work away from one union to give it to another because the members of the first union fuck the dog a whole lot more, and he's complaining about it AS A UNION MEMBER HIMSELF. I've had to deal with it and seen the effects first hand. The friends I have working in the automotive sector are experiencing similar frustration. As a matter of fact, the big joke around here is CAW actually stands for "Canadians Against Working". It's an earned reputation.

I already said it's better working for a union that not in that post you're quoting, so I have no idea what you're going on about.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:15 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Ok, they can move overseas and try to make a profit selling to Chinese, European, or other nations consumers, I really don't care. They will be replaced by new companies or union friendly companies will take their place. Having cheaper labour is worthless if you can't compete with high tariffs or even sell your products at all in the US market.

I don't think you understood my original point.

Ok, so have fun paying $2000 for a DVD player, because companies who do labour based manufacturing in North America can't compete with China. Not by a long shot. Manufacturing here is becoming increasingly automated in most industries, and will continue to do so. I was on a tour of the Husky Injection Molding plant in Bolton, Ontario, and our guide pointed to one of their machines and plainly said "this is how we compete with cheap labour from China".

Like I said, have fun dealing with inflation. It's never going to happen. I want jobs staying in Canada as much as you do, but it's not realistic to make demands like you are.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:18 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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You're comparing management and engineers with blue collar workers.

Fair enough, but it follows the same premise when bidding for a contract. I'm not going to order labour from an organization that can't give me quality at a reasonable price, I will find someone else who will to maximize my own profits. This is reality, enjoy your stay.

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Again if you look back in history you'll find this was a corporate talking point even very soon after unions where established and I'm no more inclined to believe it today.

That's ok, people believe all kinds of crazy things that aren't true.

The funny thing is, I'm actually pro-union, I just don't like a lot of the unions today.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:20 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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möbiustrip
 
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Number 1, yes. Number 2, sometimes, maybe. I didn't sign a contract containing any details regarding where I can and cannont work, or for whom. As a matter of fact, I was in an environment where people were switching companies for the same job on the same site for a competitor. It's not unheard of. What you're saying is not necessarily wrong, but it's not correct all of the time.
Obviously it's up to the employer and the nature of the work.

If you "saved [a corporation] a few million dollars," and you haven't signed a non-compete, your employer gets an expensive lesson in risk management. They are precisely to preempt a bidding war.

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To deny labour is a market like any other is also untrue. Labour absolutely is a market, and is therefore affected by market fundamentals. The best product wins out, and people are always willing to pay a premium for it.
Plenty of poor products enjoy large market share. If Widget Inc. can reduce its cost by a factor of 10, and no one wants to pay Bob's Custom Widgets a 10x premium, the market has spoken. The mass-produced crap is "best" because it won.

Likewise, if a guy will do your job for a third of your pay, your employer decides whether three of him is worth more than one of you. If you drive a truck, this is a no-brainer.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:34 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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Likewise, if a guy will do your job for a third of your pay, your employer decides whether three of him is worth more than one of you. If you drive a truck, this is a no-brainer.
The truck wrecks I've seen on US-22 have shown me you really can't have idiots driving trucks, though, no matter how "cheap" they are.
Old 06-28-2009, 03:22 AM Frenetic is offline  
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The truck wrecks I've seen on US-22 have shown me you really can't have idiots driving trucks, though, no matter how "cheap" they are.
Delivery, not semi trailer. The one that shows up at your house. I should have said "van."

Truckers are on so many drugs with so little sleep it doesn't really matter if they were idiots to start with.
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Old 06-28-2009, 06:08 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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Truckers are on so many drugs with so little sleep it doesn't really matter if they were idiots to start with.

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Old 06-28-2009, 06:45 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Fedex is a piece of shit company and the contrast between how it treats its workers and how UPS treats theirs shows why unions are important.

I don't know... maybe it's the UPS unit around my town, but I've been burned many times by UPS. Late delivery, damaged packages, they knock on my door once and then run away with the item before I can get to the door, shitty attitudes. I thought it might have been a fluke the first time or two, but now I will avoid UPS at all costs. Fedex seems to be the much better company, even if they do beat their employees
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:36 PM SnakeIRye is offline  
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