General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > General [M]ayhem > Automotive [M]ayhem
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
[H]ard|On
tell me i is retarded and i will just potato
 
[H]ard|On's Avatar
 
This really is getting boring. Clearly you cannot absorb information no matter how carefully it is spoon fed to you.

V6 came because of FWD and cost savings. Your implications about the popularity of a straight six with automakers says nothing about it's physical properties. Your claim that engine balance means nothing is absurd too. Why don't we all run giant 3.5L weed-whacker motors with one cylinder? It would save money... I assure you that Ford would do it if they could get away with it.

Ps. And a V12 is only two V6s if you don't know any better. I tried to show you the math behind it but apparently it went right over your head.
__________________
Make Genmay Great Again
Old 04-01-2012, 12:28 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
Reply With Quote
#136  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
The 1500hp 1.5 turbo went from 450 to 850 in 1000 rpm Here's actually a fun read about it - apparently they had to place 70% of the weight over the rear wheels to get ANY power down.

http://racingotaku.wordpress.com/200...est-f1-engine/

Anyway a larger motor would have a more predictable power delivery. For "real life" we don't need well over a thousand. If the new M3 had north of 600 it would smash everything as it is. All while being smooth, easy to service and durable.

Good read indeed, despite the white stuff dripping from that block.
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 12:35 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#137  

[H]ard|On
tell me i is retarded and i will just potato
 
[H]ard|On's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
Good read indeed, despite the white stuff dripping from that block.

the white stuff is callde Bavarian loc-tite

I'm on a mission now to dig up some old footage. I wanna see those rear weighted death traps come out of a corner.
__________________
Make Genmay Great Again
Old 04-01-2012, 12:36 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
Reply With Quote
#138  

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
I'm weed-whacking ignorance although you can call it whatever you want. For example Killjoy thought it's a valid argument to ask why it's not used in F1 or other motorsports It was banned because it was too brutal. Period.

Rally - 2 liter max, 300hp limit
NASCAR - no FI, v8 only
F1 - no FI, v8 only

Lemons (no regulation) - TWO i6 at a time ftw

Dumbass, they were never used except by a few cars in the early 50s (most notably in Jags), and those had plenty of limitations that rendered them obsolete and irrelevant.

And so far you've not offered a shred of evidence showing how "brutal" and "dominating". Asa actually posted some real information (granted, very biased), but that was an I4, not I6.

So, c'mon: bring on the proof.
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 12:40 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#139  

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannum View Post
Why does having a V at any angle matter? V6s have most of the good ones covered - 45, 60, 90, (even some oddball shit like 12 or whatever the VR6 angle is) and it has better torsional vibration characteristics than an I6, on account of being shorter.

Don't forget 120 oh, and 180!!
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 12:47 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#140  

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Meh, some of this is getting boring, but fuck it. Yeah, there's a fundamental difference between a V12 and an I6. The V12 is packaged more efficiently... I'd call it two V6s, because it does something intelligent with the length and fits two cylinders per row. And you know, yeah, you can put V6s at more or less any angle you care to. You can do the same with V8s (they don't, often, but there's examples of it) because fundamentally, the "it's fully naturally balanced" is wankery. It does not, in the actual real world that we live in, matter.

The point in bringing race cars into it is that, any time a manufacturer had the opportunity to design a from-scratch race engine, even if they picked a 6 cylinder, they didn't do an I6. I6s aren't inherently superior in power production to V6s, and if they're any stronger, it's more than counterbalanced by the fact that they're a pain in the ass to package. The fact that the things are very long for the number of cylinders they have (which even you have never denied) and the compromises they force to package them is why no one but BMW bothers, and why even BMW is likely to stop eventually. Also, Jaguar dropped the I6 for a V8 prior to Ford's purchase; for a few years they were running without any 6 cylinder at all.

I don't really expect you to listen, honestly; you seem content to pick the interpretations that support your biases, and now strawman shit? So I'm going to do something better; see you when BMW announces a V6.

Here's the pertinent fact, from his very own wiki quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by I6 wiki
It is also sometimes used for smaller engines but these, although very smooth running, tend to be rather expensive to manufacture in terms of cost-to-power ratio.
Ford did a prototype study back in 2002 iirc, where they built an I8, set transversely like an FWD; but instead of picking the power delivery from the end of that long assed crank, they put a gear smack in the middle, and drove the trans there, then sent it to the rear wheels traditionally. It was said that it was an amazingly smooth and powerful motor, but very wide for the space; however, it did allow for alot of footwell room in the cabin.

 i think he's getting mad, too.  
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 12:55 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#141  

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
This really is getting boring. Clearly you cannot absorb information no matter how carefully it is spoon fed to you.

V6 came because of FWD and cost savings. Your implications about the popularity of a straight six with automakers says nothing about it's physical properties. Your claim that engine balance means nothing is absurd too. Why don't we all run giant 3.5L weed-whacker motors with one cylinder? It would save money... I assure you that Ford would do it if they could get away with it.

Ps. And a V12 is only two V6s if you don't know any better. I tried to show you the math behind it but apparently it went right over your head.

Like hell, you showed no maths whatsoever, just a few well-selected quotes. And either way, I could claim a V12 is just two I4s and a V4 cobbled together.

I4s are naturals for FWD packaging; V6s definitely are not, if only because that second bank really fucks things up in that department; but they made them work because the consumers demanded the torque and power.

They'll try damn near anything to get the edge in the engine wars--I mean, hell, they have this thang that looks like a pizza-pie slice that buzzes around inside some funny-shaped hole, and think it works --it doesn't, but don't tell the fanbois that.  they keep trying all sorts of layouts, looking for that magic bullet, but it just isn't happening as much because the engines aren't that good, and because the buying public wont have it.
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 01:02 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#142  

Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Tex Arcana's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
the white stuff is callde Bavarian loc-tite

I'm on a mission now to dig up some old footage. I wanna see those rear weighted death traps come out of a corner.

Yeah, it keeps locking up your assholes, instead of dripping out like normal.

I would too... I may have seen them before, but they were so unreliable, they didn't run much.
__________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 04-01-2012, 01:04 AM Tex Arcana is offline  
Reply With Quote
#143  

[H]ard|On
tell me i is retarded and i will just potato
 
[H]ard|On's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
Yeah, it keeps locking up your assholes, instead of dripping out like normal.

I would too... I may have seen them before, but they were so unreliable, they didn't run much.

They had some problems at first because they were the first F1 cars to use a computer.
__________________
Make Genmay Great Again
Old 04-01-2012, 02:17 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
Reply With Quote
#144  

[H]ard|On
tell me i is retarded and i will just potato
 
[H]ard|On's Avatar
 
I found something for KJ - as far as "engine smoothness doesn't matter" goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosworth DFV
While designed as an F1 engine, the DFV was also used as in endurance racing, although its flat-plane design led to destructive vibrations putting stress on devices surrounding the engine, especially the exhaust system. The first sports car to use a DFV, the Ford P68, failed to finish a single race because of repeated mechanical and electrical failures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth

That's the Cosworth motor. It did win a bunch of shit but clearly for real life you can't have a motor that lasts three hours before it shakes itself to death, and everything around it. This is pretty much why BMW sold Sauber and got away from F1. It's a pointless expense that doesn't translate anything into real, reliable performance cars.

GT races are more relevant since the cars are based on real cars. Like FIA GT series - Last season GT3 (2011) was won by a Porch 4.0 liter flat six


Also worth noting that Nissan doesn't run the V6 in the GT-R. They use a V8 To be fair I didn't see any BMW sixes either, which is why they didn't win. 4th place was a Z4 with 4.4L V8 from e90 M3 - still beat the Audi v10, Ford GT and Aston Martin
__________________
Make Genmay Great Again
Old 04-01-2012, 02:19 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
Reply With Quote
#145  

mekilljoydammit
[H]Cars refugee and rotary whore at large
 
Do the math for amplitude of the imbalances produced by various firing order options. Talk to actual engineers responsible for actual engine designs for actual companies. Look up the history of development of various engine platforms, and why various things broke, and why they did various things to fix them.

Also, SuperGT is, like DTM, a restricted engine class now. The Toyota and Nissan teams had migrated to biggish production based V8s to eliminate turbo lag, and now it's mandated to use a 3.4L racing based engine to save everyone the cost of doing engine development. In FIA GT-3 the GT-R is using the turbo V6, but without the stupid AWD shit in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
Ford did a prototype study back in 2002 iirc, where they built an I8, set transversely like an FWD; but instead of picking the power delivery from the end of that long assed crank, they put a gear smack in the middle, and drove the trans there, then sent it to the rear wheels traditionally. It was said that it was an amazingly smooth and powerful motor, but very wide for the space; however, it did allow for alot of footwell room in the cabin.
Interestingly enough, Suzuki actually had an FWD, transverse I6 in a production car for a while - unsure if they still do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
They'll try damn near anything to get the edge in the engine wars--I mean, hell, they have this thang that looks like a pizza-pie slice that buzzes around inside some funny-shaped hole, and think it works --it doesn't, but don't tell the fanbois that. 
Hey, it works great! And as long as it keeps passing emissions laws they'll keep maki... oh... damn.
__________________
Everything is a gag...

We thought it must be possible to make an interesting living messing about with racing cars and engines." -Keith Duckworth

Driving: A nice practical sedate car... '03 WRX
Shooting: Canon P, Zorki 6, Nikon D5100, 1911, FAL
Old 04-01-2012, 07:24 AM mekilljoydammit is offline  
Reply With Quote
#146  

KorruptioN
 
KorruptioN's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Interestingly enough, Suzuki actually had an FWD, transverse I6 in a production car for a while - unsure if they still do.

Volvo puts a 3.2L transverse straight-six in its S80. I still have no idea how it fits, and how small the transmission needs to be.
Old 04-01-2012, 08:36 AM KorruptioN is offline  
Reply With Quote
#147  

DopefishLives
The Artist Formerly Known As StratocasterMaster, I was so [H]ard Kyle could feel it in Texas and got
 
DopefishLives's Avatar
 
Inline-5.
__________________
Wow | So E92 | Very 335i | Much ///M Sport
Old 04-01-2012, 08:56 AM DopefishLives is offline  
Reply With Quote
#148  

Grazehell
 
Grazehell's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
I found something for KJ - as far as "engine smoothness doesn't matter" goes:



That's the Cosworth motor. It did win a bunch of shit but clearly for real life you can't have a motor that lasts three hours before it shakes itself to death, and everything around it. This is pretty much why BMW sold Sauber and got away from F1. It's a pointless expense that doesn't translate anything into real, reliable performance cars.

GT races are more relevant since the cars are based on real cars. Like FIA GT series - Last season GT3 (2011) was won by a Porch 4.0 liter flat six


Also worth noting that Nissan doesn't run the V6 in the GT-R. They use a V8 To be fair I didn't see any BMW sixes either, which is why they didn't win. 4th place was a Z4 with 4.4L V8 from e90 M3 - still beat the Audi v10, Ford GT and Aston Martin

Nissan uses a their VK56DE V8 in the GT1 GT-R and the their VR38DETT V6 in their upcoming GT3 GT-R car

http://www.nismo.co.jp/en/news_list/...sh/110009.html
Quote:
The Nissan GT-R NISMO GT3 features a 3.8 V6 twin-turbo engine that is based on a standard road car unit, developing 530ps at 6400 rpm. Power is delivered via six-speed transaxle that drives the rear wheels, activated by a semi-automatic paddle-shift system.

In SuperGT GT500 class rules require them to run a V8 in the GT300 class they will be running the VR38DETT very soon also

Last edited by Grazehell; 04-01-2012 at 09:12 AM..
Old 04-01-2012, 09:07 AM Grazehell is offline  
Reply With Quote
#149  

2[H]4U
 
2[H]4U's Avatar
 
I'm probably the only one in this entire thread that could actually afford one of these.
__________________
jelly?
Old 04-01-2012, 09:41 AM 2[H]4U is offline  
Reply With Quote
#150  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:26 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.