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[H]ard|On
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Why is "winning" in quotes? The Israelis won those sections in wars, have we not done the same? And I think the world is to a point where we don't want ANY countries winning more land, because that means that there is MORE WAR.

We CAN"T do the same thing against Pakistan and N. Korea, as they already have the nukes, ain't shit we can do about it now. Should we have stopped Pakistan, when they were first starting? Yeah, probably. But Pakistan's nukes were in response to India's way back in what, the late 70s? And they did it in secret. Not a ton we could do about it after the fact. Wasn't a whole lot we could do about N. Korea either, but we did take some steps.

Basically, the Middle East is a hot-bed of instability and fighting, especially in this day and age, and it probably isn't a good idea for any of those countries to have nuclear power. Needless to say, they probably do and will. IIRC, there was a pakistani scientist who sold nuclear arms secrets to N. Korea and Iran.

All it takes is one false move by someone, whether it be right or wrong, and we have a huge clusterfuck. If one nuke goes off, anywhere, at least one more is going off. Thats the only way you can retaliate against a nuclear attack - in kind. And odds are, if that happens, it will be more than one. Say Iran goes sideways in the next regime and they have nukes. Odds are they will be used against us, or Israel. They're not just gonna detonate one, because both of us can respond in kind, on a massive level. they're going to go off with both barrels, attempting to take out entire countries. And if its a terrorist act instead? That ends up worse.

World was a lot simpler when it was just us pointing them at the USSR and vice-versa, because at least that was mutually assured destruction. Meaning, nukes weren't about to start flying.

You say there isn't shit we can do now, I assume because it's wrong to just barge in and meddle with a country who is technically doing nothing wrong.

The whole point i am making is that Iran is in that category now. We simply do not have any ground to barge in and meddle, whether they completed a nuclear bomb or not. For all we know they have. It doesn't change anything. They would have to use it first. Otherwise it's indeed like that Tom Cruise movie where you are not just guilty before being proven so, but you are guilty before a crime has been committed.

It's simply against our own principles. Like torture. Sure it's handy but we said we wouldn't do it. Ultimately it's worse to prosecute an innocent person or people, than to let a guilty person or people go - that is our legal paradigm. When you add the fact that no crime has occurred it becomes plain silly.

GWB once said "if they are not with us, they are against us" which is wrong. Just because someone isn't your friend it doesn't make them your enemy either!
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:19 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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You say there isn't shit we can do now, I assume because it's wrong to just barge in and meddle with a country who is technically doing nothing wrong.
No, we can't barge in because they have fucking nuclear weapons you dumbass. They're the ultimate deterrent. They could be doing everything wrong under the sun and we couldn't do shit about it because of the nukes.

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The whole point i am making is that Iran is in that category now. We simply do not have any ground to barge in and meddle, whether they completed a nuclear bomb or not. For all we know they have. It doesn't change anything. They would have to use it first. Otherwise it's indeed like that Tom Cruise movie where you are not just guilty before being proven so, but you are guilty before a crime has been committed.
The analogy to individuals getting arrested for thought crimes doesn't play out on the international level. We could invade Iran because we felt threatened, because they're breaking the NPT treaty. We'd only have to justify it to Congress, there's really no legal consequences if we invaded any country for any reason.
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It's simply against our own principles. Like torture. Sure it's handy but we said we wouldn't do it. Ultimately it's worse to prosecute an innocent person or people, than to let a guilty person or people go - that is our legal paradigm. When you add the fact that no crime has occurred it becomes plain silly.
Not really. Again, individual analogies fail at the national level. If we really believed our national interests were best served by invading Iran, our leaders would have the responsibility of doing so, regardless of whether they had "hit first" or not. Shit is not the schoolyard.

Also, how is it "against our principles?"

Now, I totally disagree that it would actually be the right thing to do, but your approach to this is totally wrong.
Old 03-03-2012, 10:56 PM Gibonius is offline  
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As far as the "why they should" question, it's obvious enough why Iran wants nukes. The question is why in the hell anyone not invested in the current Iranian regime would be happy/content with them getting them. I can't see any upside. They're a country with strong regional ambitions in an unstable region, they don't appear to be likely to use that power in moderation. They have a low likelihood of longterm stability, which raises the rather terrifying thought of an Arab Spring style revolution ending up with nukes. None of it is good. I don't think any of it is worth an invasion, but it's bad news and anyone rooting in the West is nuts.
Old 03-03-2012, 11:00 PM Gibonius is offline  
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SamFarber
 
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They're a country with strong regional ambitions.....

What?



Imagine if China invaded Mexico and Canada and said we were the problem and we had regional ambitions.

LOL!!!!!!!!! You people are schizophrenic. Completely divorced from reality.

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in an unstable region
Yeah, start a bunch of wars in the region and call it "unstable."
Old 03-04-2012, 09:01 AM SamFarber is offline  
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Why_Ask_Why
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seriously, are you posting from the bar again?

oh come on man. think back to art school flaps, before you were indoctrinated.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:36 AM Why_Ask_Why is offline  
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someone else
 
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What?



Imagine if China invaded Mexico and Canada and said we were the problem and we had regional ambitions.

LOL!!!!!!!!! You people are schizophrenic. Completely divorced from reality.



Yeah, start a bunch of wars in the region and call it "unstable."

You're completely divorced from reality if you thing we invaded 10 countries.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:29 AM someone else is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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What?

Imagine if China invaded Mexico and Canada and said we were the problem and we had regional ambitions.

LOL!!!!!!!!! You people are schizophrenic. Completely divorced from reality.

Yeah, start a bunch of wars in the region and call it "unstable."

Not sure what point you think you're making there. Unless you're Iranian, what interest do you have in seeing Iran play a larger role in influencing the Middle East? Why would that be good for anybody except Iran?

"LOL the US does shit too lololol" is not an argument.
Old 03-04-2012, 12:09 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Why_Ask_Why
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:20 PM Why_Ask_Why is offline  
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joemama
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Not sure what point you think you're making there. Unless you're Iranian, what interest do you have in seeing Iran play a larger role in influencing the Middle East? Why would that be good for anybody except Iran?

"LOL the US does shit too lololol" is not an argument.
Remember who you're talking to there...he hates Jews so the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play. Of course if Israel didn't exist he would hate Iran because Persians aren't white enough..
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:24 PM joemama is online now  
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5ive
 
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I think Iran is a little more open than this picture depicts
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:35 PM 5ive is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Remember who you're talking to there...he hates Jews so the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play. Of course if Israel didn't exist he would hate Iran because Persians aren't white enough..

Even on the "fuck Israel" grounds, Iran getting the bomb isn't going to make a difference. Israel is way too good of a bogeyman for these shitty ME regimes (and the consequences for doing something like nuking Israel would be astronomical, especially since Israel has their own nukes). They can keep their population pissed off at Israel and sweep the shittiness of their own rule under the rug.

Only way Israel gets hurt in the long run is if the Iranian government falls and some crazier group gets ahold of the nukes.
Old 03-04-2012, 12:53 PM Gibonius is offline  
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joemama
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I think Iran is a little more open than this picture depicts
If not yet, then certainly headed that direction. http://now.msn.com/entertainment/030...ge-singer.aspx
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:59 PM joemama is online now  
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SamFarber
 
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UK and American female students:

Old 03-04-2012, 03:20 PM SamFarber is offline  
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SamFarber
 
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+ Google Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then Google Video is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Start watching around 14:00 - I like how the female students are learning engineering. Not many female engineering students in the US.
Old 03-04-2012, 03:27 PM SamFarber is offline  
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I'm pretty sure our intelligence agencies aren't just taking his word for it.

I find it incredibly ironic that these are the same intel agencies that provided Iraq intel.
Also, your article says they halted in 2003... I thought they only were arming because Bush called them "TEH AXIS OF EBIL!"?

Iran can weaponize, easily. Their belligerence in opposing international inspections (required by the very treaties they signed) is for a reason.
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:32 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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