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wwilliam54
 
Just to add
I found a better example
a 3kwh system with inverter in the price for 13k$.

thats 30cents/hour of good sun
or 3900 good hours of sun

with a shitty average of 3 hours per day
thats about 4 years
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Old 07-10-2010, 01:01 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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the rated lifetime is bunk.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/Technologies.htm


"Amorphous silicon is the most well developed of the thin film technologies. In its simplest form, the cell structure has a single sequence of p-i-n layers. Such cells suffer from significant degradation in their power output (in the range 15-35%) when exposed to the sun.

The mechanism of degradation is called the Staebler-Wronski Effect, after its discoverers. Better stability requires the use of a thinner layers in order to increase the electric field strength across the material. However, this reduces light absorption and hence cell efficiency. "
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:02 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
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the rated lifetime is bunk.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/Technologies.htm


"Amorphous silicon is the most well developed of the thin film technologies. In its simplest form, the cell structure has a single sequence of p-i-n layers. Such cells suffer from significant degradation in their power output (in the range 15-35%) when exposed to the sun.

The mechanism of degradation is called the Staebler-Wronski Effect, after its discoverers. Better stability requires the use of a thinner layers in order to increase the electric field strength across the material. However, this reduces light absorption and hence cell efficiency. "

I know
the first of the 2 post included that
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:08 PM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:35 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
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...
IDK why you bothered to post that link
I agree with all that, thats why I used bad case scenarios for light-per-day and $ per Kwh
As well as the same degradation rate they used, 1%/year

That link only says that what I calculated up could be 5% off in either direction.

To prove what you said about 40 year break even you need to find evidence that shows I am 100% off, not 5%
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Old 07-10-2010, 07:09 PM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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but it is not 1% a year it's a HIGH percent in the first year and they put the lifespan at 20 years.

And that degradation is only the inherent. Not loss of light capture due to weathering/dirt buildup bird shit etc etc.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:08 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
Make up you mind,
You post links, when I show you that they agree with what I say, you act as if they said something different the whole time.
I got you corned in this argument. Numbers don't lie.
You can say
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
but it is not 1% a year it's a HIGH percent in the first year and they put the lifespan at 20 years.

And that degradation is only the inherent. Not loss of light capture due to weathering/dirt buildup bird shit etc etc.

but that doesn't change the fact that your dead wrong, and until you can show me FACT&NUMBERS (legitimate) that show at least a 50% variation from the numbers I posted, your argument is pwnt.
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Old 07-11-2010, 02:00 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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you need to learn to read.


"This means the manufacturer expects them to degrade 1% per year on average. When calculating performance in the models, people also tend to use a 1% degradation rate per year."

and comprehend.

thats the degradation AVERAGED over the 20 year guarantee
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Old 07-11-2010, 02:17 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
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you need to learn to read.


"This means the manufacturer expects them to degrade 1% per year on average. When calculating performance in the models, people also tend to use a 1% degradation rate per year."

and comprehend.

thats the degradation AVERAGED over the 20 year guarantee

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Old 07-11-2010, 11:34 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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sigh
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:06 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fed gov

Q: What is an average break-even point for a solar energy system?

A: Some of the following documents are available as Adobe Acrobat PDFs. Download Acrobat Reader.

It depends. The break-even point for a system depends on financing and incentives, which vary from place to place, and it depends on your solar resources and what you would pay for another source of energy. A system designer that has information about your location, the amount of energy you typically use, how much land or roof area you have for the system, etc., could give you a more accurate answer.

You can obtain a very good estimate by contacting a reputable system designer or installer.

Other Resources: Consumer's Guide to Buying a Solar Electric System. September 1999. (PDF 704 KB).

Photovoltaics and Commercial Buildings - A Natural Match: A study highlights opportunities and locations for using photovoltaics to power businesses. September 1998. NREL. (PDF 210 KB).

back to top

Q: How can federal facilities make the economics of solar work for them, given the long payback period? Are there financial incentives available to help them pay for solar roofs?

A: Solar energy systems meet federal life-cycle cost requirements in situations where they are providing high-value power or where the cost of alternatives is high. All costs must be considered in comparing solar to other options, however. For remote systems, the government considers the cost of transporting fuel to a site, and the risk and cost of fuel spills during transit or storage. Solar energy is often the least-cost alternative when a project involves building an electricity distribution line. The Federal Energy Management Program (FEMP) has many examples of cost-effective solar installations on its Web site.

Federal facilities may also qualify for state or utility incentive programs for using renewable energy. In Hawaii, the Coast Guard and the Navy have used a utility rebate to buy down the cost of thousands of solar hot water systems. Check the DSIRE Web site for more information about state incentives for renewable energy.

Direct financial support for federal renewable energy projects depends on appropriations. When grants are available, FEMP usually announces them on its Web site or in its newsletter for federal energy managers.

A wide variety of resources are available through DOE FEMP to assist federal agencies in financing solar energy projects. Funding options available for federal projects include the following:

In other words the break even point is not really a break even point, smoke and mirrors using Incentives. When the fed gov has to juggle the books by granting itself those incentives to make it look like it works outside of remote systems that cant be easily serviced with grid power or it's own generators due to fuel transport costs you know you have a problem.

thats why a good company that isn't just pushing green fud will advise you against installing solar if it's for cost savings.

I did find a nice solar company vid, it claims 14-18 years break even and then juggles the numbers to say it's only 8 years because if you sell your home in eight years you can recover the cost as part of the sale price of the house.


http://www.solardave.com/index.php/s...n-point-video/

Of course it's better than it used to be. Panels themselves can at least make back their energy cost to produce. But thats without the rest of the system, batteries, inverters, phase matching systems if you want to sell your nickle and dime excess instead of wasting it.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:28 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
In other words the break even point is not really a break even point, smoke and mirrors using Incentives. When the fed gov has to juggle the books by granting itself those incentives to make it look like it works outside of remote systems that cant be easily serviced with grid power or it's own generators due to fuel transport costs you know you have a problem.

thats why a good company that isn't just pushing green fud will advise you against installing solar if it's for cost savings.

I did find a nice solar company vid, it claims 14-18 years break even and then juggles the numbers to say it's only 8 years because if you sell your home in eight years you can recover the cost as part of the sale price of the house.


http://www.solardave.com/index.php/s...n-point-video/

Of course it's better than it used to be. Panels themselves can at least make back their energy cost to produce. But thats without the rest of the system, batteries, inverters, phase matching systems if you want to sell your nickle and dime excess instead of wasting it.
I did forget about the incentives.
So, my break-even times are longer than what they really would be...
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:25 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwilliam54 View Post
I did forget about the incentives.
So, my break-even times are total bunk unless I am home running every high power device I own during peak sunshine hours for 30 years and pretend that I am not stealing money from the rest of the taxpayers to inflate my ROI..

fixt

In other words you have a GREEN blindspot for solar. Not quite as bad as gibsy's global warming religion where a claim of the HOTTEST YEAR EVER included an area the size of the indian ocean that was excluded because every independent measurement across the area showed cooling and was thus deemed FALSE by the warnist worshipers and clergy. Not to mention the SINGLE tree with outlier data selected After the data was taken because it was the only one that almost agreed with their theories but STILL had to be modified with adjusted data.
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Last edited by TheMorlock; 07-13-2010 at 06:24 PM..
Old 07-13-2010, 06:14 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
Quote:
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fixt

In other words you have a GREEN blindspot for solar. Not quite as bad as gibsy's global warming religion where a claim of the HOTTEST YEAR EVER included an area the size of the indian ocean that was excluded because every independent measurement across the area showed cooling and was thus deemed FALSE by the warnist worshipers and clergy. Not to mention the SINGLE tree with outlier data selected After the data was taken because it was the only one that almost agreed with their theories but STILL had to be modified with adjusted data.

....
So, are you really arguing at this point, or just up late and bored
I have to ask
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:08 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwilliam54 View Post
....
So, are you really arguing at this point, or just up late and bored
I have to ask

read the time stamp
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:25 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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