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DreamWarrior
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindred
I absolutely hate arguments that go something like:

Do laws trying to prevent something illegal work? No. so why bother having/enforcing them?

As far as I'm concerned, you might as well be spouting: Do having cops, courtrooms, and jail prevent crime and criminals? no, so why bother having them?
Actually, cops, courtrooms, and jail do not prevent crime. They only serve to remove criminals at our expense. New criminals, however, will replace them because cops, courtrooms, and jail do not prevent crime.

Now, while I agree that removing criminals does reduce crime, there is a difference between reducing and preventing. To prevent crime, the criminal would have to actually think "ya know, I would do x, but there's this law/cop/courtroom/jail in place that stops me." That doesn't happen, the criminal could care less about all that, they just do it. Most people would likely not do "x" to begin with, not because of the law, but because most "laws" that *should* be enforced make sense.

More laws make more criminals simply because they criminalize shit. On the bright side, however, they do create jobs for an ever growing society.
Old 07-15-2005, 02:41 PM DreamWarrior is offline  
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Old 07-15-2005, 02:45 PM yolo is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubius
There needs to be a line drawn. If you get an 89.9% the professor has ever right to give you a B and if you take it to the office of the dean, he will probably tell you the same. There needs to be a line drawn at some point, and in this case it is marijuana. If you legalize marijuana then in Ďxí amount of years people will want opium legalized, and so forth. I have many friends who smoke weed and Iíd venture to guess it played a role in their failure out of school and basically ruined their life. I also have a few friends that smoke weed that are incredibly intelligent and will probably do well in life, but in the past two years Iíve observed noticeable changes in their habits including progression or at least experimentation with harder drugs.
All drugs should be legal, you should be the final authority on what goes in your body, not the government. You are responsible for what you do, both to yourself and others. INANIMATE OBJECTS DONT MAKE PEOPLE DO THINGS. People choose their own path in life, inanimate objects do not make decisions for them.

Quote:
On the legal end of this issue, the government probably doesnít want to be liable. If marijuana is a gateway drug, which I believe it is, then the government could be held liable for putting people on the path to more dangerous drugs. Alcohol and cigarettes do not, for the most part, promote drug use thus they cannot be compared in this context. You wonít let a child play with a loaded gun, and the government isnít going to risk legalizing marijuana if it can, even in the slightest percentage, promote someone to do harder drugs. They canít do much with alcohol because it has become such an integrated part of our lives, but since marijuana is already illegal it makes it easier.
The gateway theory was invented by harry anslinger and it used to go like this: If you smoke even one joint you will instantly become a hopeless addict and next week you will be shooting heroin into your eyeballs. It is no more true today than it was when that asshole first pulled it out his ass. Remeber this was the second explanation for why marijuana needed to be illegal, the first being that it made people go completely insane and start killing people with superhuman strength.

The gateway theory is based on correlation not actual causation. If we use correlation then we can assume that milk leads to drug use because 99% of people who use drugs had tried milk at least once in their lifetimes prior to their drug use.

The "gateway effect" has to do with the fact that marijuana is a gateway to illicit markets (because we made it illegal) and because the person who sellls marijuana often sells other things this often introduces people to harder drugs. Also, people who have found out that the propoganda they were taught about marijuana was completely false are also more willing to believe the things they were taught about other drugs were false as well. Once you disbelieve a source about one thing you will be more willing to disbelieve them about others.

http://www.reason.com/links/links012403.shtml
http://www.rand.org/publications/RB/RB6010/

edit: also, as to the gateway effect, it is a story to demonize marijuana. More people have their first illegal drug experience with alcohol or tobacco when they try them before they are old enough to legally do so. Why is there never any mention alcohol or tobacco as gateway drugs? IF that is the first drug you tried wouldn't that be your "gateway" to drug use?
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Last edited by pyramid; 07-16-2005 at 10:19 AM..
Old 07-15-2005, 02:54 PM pyramid is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindred
So you're saying people only need to obey the law and law enforcement only needs to uphold the law if they feel it has moral backing???
I am saying that people do not obey laws simply because they are the law. They obey them because the law is a reflection of the moral codes of a vast majority (95%+), and these same laws (and minor variants) appear in all cultures in some form or another. Virtually all societies in the world have laws against murder and theft, yet drug laws are not universal. Intoxication has been around as long as murder and theft, but very few cultures could agree on their drug laws. A puritan would be against all forms of drug use, while a mayan might use drugs spiritually, and a punker from seattle might see no harm in shooting up once in a while for the hell of it.

People are not robots. We do not percieve the law as black and white. Just because there is a law against crossing a double-yellow line does not mean that you are physically incapable of crossing that line. We, for the most part, choose our moralities and when to follow the law.

Please read up on natural law. It is founding basis for this country ("We hold these truths to be self-evident"), and most of the legal systems throughout history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:40 PM Quinine is offline  
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Elite_Garbage_Man
 
I don't soke weed and I think it should be legalized. If it was really that horrible, then why is alcohol legal? Alcohol is a drug, and it kills more people per yer than all the drugs combined. Yeah you should feel really confortable with a government like that. Safety first citizens! We won't let those fucking liberals smoke in your neighboorhood so feel safe as we drive our fucking cars around your streets after slamming 10 beers in half an hour.

I have yet to hear any reasons why pot is a threat to society that are actually true. So if someone has one, please let me know.

Also, you can use pot to make clothing materials, paper and a shit load of other stuff. Infact it can produce 4 times as much as trees. American flags, levi jeans and books used to be made from hemp.

Yeah pot is really fucking horrible
Old 07-15-2005, 06:05 PM Elite_Garbage_Man is offline  
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#65  

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I have a question for pot-users out there: is it possible to use pot without getting the mind-altering effects? I mean like in small quantities.
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Old 07-15-2005, 06:13 PM Ray Charles is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g
Like me. I have never smoked marijuana, yet I am wholeheartedly for its full legalization, not only for matters of principle, but economics. Not only should people be free to use this low-risk substance, but I, as a taxpayer, am sick and tired of paying to enforce this prohibition. Between police, judicial, and other costs, the active cost of prohibition is in the tens of billions of dollars, and that doesn't even include all the lost productivity caused by hassling honest citizens about their private behavior. That figure also does not include if marijuana were a legal crop, how much tax the industry which produces it would pay.


Not to mention that ending prohibition would seriously cut into the profits of violent, organized crime.

Ditto. Never smoked marijuana in my life, but I agree with legalization.
Old 07-15-2005, 08:37 PM Mikiri is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeKevinI
Legalize pot, ban cigarettes and snuff (or just gradually tax them out of the marketplace). I far prefer potheads to chain smokers.
Now what did chewing tobacco do to anyone?

No second hand smoke, the only fatalities are the users, and even they aren't as bad as smokers. Yes you can point to an array of various images on the internet and all of that, but smoke a pack a day for 30 years, or chew a few times a week for 30 years and we'll see who is in better shape.
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Old 07-16-2005, 01:20 AM darwin is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubius
Alcohol and cigarettes do not, for the most part, promote drug use


alcohol and cigarettes ARE drug use.
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Old 07-16-2005, 02:39 AM x20vmk4x is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Charles
I have a question for pot-users out there: is it possible to use pot without getting the mind-altering effects? I mean like in small quantities.
I would think that there is a way, but why would you want to smoke pot if you didn't want at least some of the effects it causes? If you don't want the effects, don't do the drug.
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Old 07-16-2005, 08:40 AM CletusJones is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Charles
I have a question for pot-users out there: is it possible to use pot without getting the mind-altering effects? I mean like in small quantities.

Pot has a variety of effects, depending on your mood, the type of plant, and the fucking lunar cycle (). You can get anything from a complete head high that makes you ponder the mysteries and complexities of the universe, to a body high that makes every inch of your body glow.
Old 07-16-2005, 08:52 AM electric!sheep is offline  
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Barney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubius
There needs to be a line drawn. If you get an 89.9% the professor has ever right to give you a B and if you take it to the office of the dean, he will probably tell you the same. There needs to be a line drawn at some point, and in this case it is marijuana. If you legalize marijuana then in Ďxí amount of years people will want opium legalized, and so forth. I have many friends who smoke weed and Iíd venture to guess it played a role in their failure out of school and basically ruined their life. I also have a few friends that smoke weed that are incredibly intelligent and will probably do well in life, but in the past two years Iíve observed noticeable changes in their habits including progression or at least experimentation with harder drugs.

first off, so what if the others are legalized? again the govt has NO right to tell people what they cant and cant put in their bodies. making drugs illegal only gives violent criminals money, lets them inflate the price to the point where addicts commit violent crimes to get money (you dont see people robbing others for cigarettes, yet its been said theyre more addictive than heroin), and makes the quality very questionable...most street drugs are cut with whothefuckknows and THATS dangerous. civilizations have had opium legal before and havent collapsed because of it...

as for the gateway theory, sorry but thats not marijuana. i bet theyve also drunk alcohol, i bet theyve eaten cereal, i bet theyve taken showers. do they experiment because of any of those things they did before? NO. they experiment because they are the kind of person who wants to try new things, and who likes being high. laws be damned theyre going to do it, now wouldnt you rather your friends be able to spend small amounts of money to try these drugs, not risk getting arrested while doing it, not risk getting shit cut with any white substance thats around, and to have the option of clean needles and being able to get help if they develop a problem, all without the risk of being arrested because they tried it?

Quote:
On the legal end of this issue, the government probably doesnít want to be liable. If marijuana is a gateway drug, which I believe it is, then the government could be held liable for putting people on the path to more dangerous drugs. Alcohol and cigarettes do not, for the most part, promote drug use thus they cannot be compared in this context. You wonít let a child play with a loaded gun, and the government isnít going to risk legalizing marijuana if it can, even in the slightest percentage, promote someone to do harder drugs. They canít do much with alcohol because it has become such an integrated part of our lives, but since marijuana is already illegal it makes it easier.
see above about "gateway drug". its a complete fallacy. how do you say they dont promote it? how does marijuana somehow promote it but they dont? cigarettes get you high in a way, alcohol definitly puts you off when you drink it. i just dont see how you think legalizing any of those drugs is a bad idea, people dont not do drugs because its illegal, they dont do it on personal preference....
Old 07-16-2005, 08:52 AM Barney is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Charles
I have a question for pot-users out there: is it possible to use pot without getting the mind-altering effects? I mean like in small quantities.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "mind-altering" effects. It depends on the user and potency of what they are smoking but someone with a high tollerance, like a daily smoker, can sometimes smoke a bowl and be pretty much unphased by it. There is a defenite tollerance like with alcohol. If you give someone uninitiated a shot of vodka they will probably feel it and the effects may even be fairly profound. If you give someone who drinks daily a shot of vodka you might not see any real change in their behaviour at all. Same thing with marijuana. It would really depend on the individual user / situation.

The only people I can really think of that report feeling nothing at all from smoking marijuana are first time users. For some reason many people just don't feel anything the first time they use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite_Garbage_Man
I have yet to hear any reasons why pot is a threat to society that are actually true. So if someone has one, please let me know.

The absolute best way I know of to illustrate that pot was never made illegal based on good intentions or any kind of actual threat it posed to the nation is to point people to the explaination of exactly how and why marijuana was made illegal. It's a lot of reading but if you ever wanted to know how and why it was made illegal then the story is an amazing revelation that everyone should know. Once you know the true story it's hard to get behind prohibition as a well thought out plan to save us from a real problem.

Short version: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm
This is a condensed speech based upon the book in the second link.

Long and detailed version: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...vlr/vlrtoc.htm
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:37 AM pyramid is offline  
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#73  

Escaped Gorilla Genitals
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Charles
I have a question for pot-users out there: is it possible to use pot without getting the mind-altering effects? I mean like in small quantities.
Unless I smoke a very large amount or smoke a particularly potent strain pot doesent do anything to me beyond giving me a buzz (like having three or four beers). I usually read a book or watch a movie after I smoke, stereotypical scenes of people freaking out (colours changing, major halucinations, etc.) are entirely media fabrications that could only result from using a harder drug.
Old 07-16-2005, 12:22 PM Escaped Gorilla Genitals is offline  
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#74  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJohnson
Weed is a gatway drug.
That being said, alcohol can lead people to smoking so whatever. I'm down with legalizing as long as we ban it in public areas.



We don't want a people walking the streets who take PCP and kill people.

Ok, you're operating under a few false assumptions here.

1) Prohibition has not been a resounding success, anyone who wants almost any drug can get it from somewhere within a mile or two from their house.

2) Marijuana itself is not a gateway drug, the fact that it's prohibited is. Kids are told their whole young life about how terrible marijuana is for you, and then when they try it in middle/high school they learn differently. All those years of being taught that pot is the devil, yet they are smoking it now and they are fine. The conclusion to this is that they have been lied to about drugs, and if pot is fine maybe everything else is too. That is your gateway, and prohibitionists created it. The only difference between alcohol and marijuana as far as being a gateway drug is that one is illegal and has feverent amounts of total lies and surrounding it's use and effects, and one doesn't.

3) Things that are illegal now for public safety reasons (driving around while intoxicated on ANYTHING, being highly intoxicated in public, ect) will still remain illegal if prohibition ended.

4) Just because something is made legal doesn't mean everyone who doesn't use it now will begin to. Various Opiates, Xanax, and other prescription pills are quite legal now, but is everyone in the country addicted to them? No, of course not, because not everyone is retarded. And even assuming everyone in the country started smoking marijuana, what would the worst effect be? Hell IMO there are a lot of people that could use a few tokes just to chill them out. When is the last time you heard about someone smoking pot and commiting a violent crime? You didn't, because it rarely happens. Marijuana calms you down, relaxes you.


If marijuana were legalized, I can almost garuntee that the crime rate would drop (by how much is anyones guess). First, the marijuana black market disappears. MJ is very profitable for the black market because of it's widespread use. Just legalizing it would eliminate a large portion of the drug trafficing market. Also, weed relaxes people, it doesn't rile them up. People getting high aren't robbing convenience stores and getting into fights most of the time, unlike drunk people who often become violent and do stupid violent things which they would not have done sober or high.


To me, legalization just seems to be a good idea all around. I can't really find a downside to it at all, and it has a huge upside to help negate any small downsides anyway.
Old 07-16-2005, 01:53 PM Malakai is offline  
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