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Runding
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
They're smart as hell so they can deal with it, but it's not part of their genetic makeup like with dogs and cats.

Yea, you're right. Dogs and cats have genetic makeup to co-exist with humans.

Oh wait, that's idiotic.

Parrots were caught in the wild just as much as dogs and cats were, and are bred for domesticity just as dogs and cats are. I'm a bird owner and I'm pretty darn sure that birds are for all intensive purposes, the exact same thing as a dog/cat -- just with wings.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:16 PM Runding is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runding View Post
Yea, you're right. Dogs and cats have genetic makeup to co-exist with humans.

Oh wait, that's idiotic.

Parrots were caught in the wild just as much as dogs and cats were, and are bred for domesticity just as dogs and cats are. I'm a bird owner and I'm pretty darn sure that birds are for all intensive purposes, the exact same thing as a dog/cat -- just with wings.

That would correctly be, for all intents and purposes, you barbarian.

Parrots have not been bred in captivity for 5,000 years(cats) to 40,000 years(dogs). They are just smart social animals with great vocal camouflage ability.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:37 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Runding View Post
Yea, you're right. Dogs and cats have genetic makeup to co-exist with humans.

Oh wait, that's idiotic.

Parrots were caught in the wild just as much as dogs and cats were, and are bred for domesticity just as dogs and cats are. I'm a bird owner and I'm pretty darn sure that birds are for all intensive purposes, the exact same thing as a dog/cat -- just with wings.

Uh, you're wrong. Dogs started living with humans tens of thousands of years ago, and selective breeding and simple adaptation has strongly influenced their genetics. Modern dogs are the product of thousand and thousands of generations of selection for traits that enable them to get along well with humans.

Similar deal with cats, they started hanging around humans something like ten thousand years ago. The ones that got along better with humans got more food and had a competitive advantage ---> cats evolved to get along with humans.

Most other pets haven't had that same kind of genetic selection over a long enough time frame.
Old 02-18-2010, 05:41 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I guess ancient Egypt didn't count? Falcons, doves, geese? Nevermind them.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:08 PM Runding is offline  
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Runding you need to read up on domestication and how it works badly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

If you really want me to dig around and find full on journal articles regarding domestication it will have to wait until tomorrow.

But to summarize the little I already know, one of the leading(iirc) hypotheses regarding canine domestication is the following.

Once human populations/civilization reached the point of permanent encampments we also began having permanent/semi permanent waste disposal locations, typically on the outskirts of camp or town. Once this happened it provided a new food source for wolves. An existing trait, flight distance, began to play a new role in the natural selection of these animals. When humans would dispose of new animal carcasses and other waste that the wolves could scavenge the wolves with the smallest flight distance had an advantage over those with large flight distances. The animals with short flight distances would approach the food while humans were in closer proximity than the other wolves and would also flee shorter distances when humans came closer to the outskirts of camp. Over a couple generations these animals began to become domesticated, once they became passive enough in the presence of human it was easier for man to step in and begin the selective selection that has brought about the hundreds of dog breeds currently in existence.

This hypothesis was roughly tested with the Russian Silver Fox Domestication experiment. Very very interesting stuff, I recommend reading up on it to anyone that is interested in domestication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox

Domestication is actually one of my interests and one of the avenues I plan to look into once I finish my MA in Experimental Psych. I currently do animal research so hopefully it wouldn't be tremendously difficult to transition into a program that would facilitate domestication research at some point down the line.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:16 PM Renork is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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I guess ancient Egypt didn't count? Falcons, doves, geese? Nevermind them.
I certainly never said no other animals did not have a long history of domestication. If you can show a continuous line from Egyptian domesticated falcons, doves, and geese to modern domesticated animals, then maybe we can talk about how those animals may have adapted to living with humans. I don't think any of them are social enough to really have any significant behavior adaptation though.

Parrots, on the other hand, have not been living with humans nearly long enough to have gone through any kind of real behavioral modification. Hell, a decent number of the ones sold in the US were caught in the wild.
Old 02-18-2010, 06:40 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Thread moves to the Pit, gets derailed instantly.


Great work guys.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:36 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runding View Post
I guess ancient Egypt didn't count? Falcons, doves, geese? Nevermind them.

Falcons are not domesticated. Learn the difference between Tamed and Domesticated.

A lion may be tamed a dog is domesticated

A wolf may be tamed a dog is domesticated.



Chickens were domesticated over 100,000 years ago IIIRC

most birds, because they can fly never get domesticated. They mix back into the wild population too often.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:19 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
Falcons are not domesticated. Learn the difference between Tamed and Domesticated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

Read the first line:
Quote:
Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.
How about
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/domesticate

Quote:
To train or adapt (an animal or plant) to live in a human environment and be of use to humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
The ones that got along better with humans got more food and had a competitive advantage ---> cats evolved to get along with humans.

Sheesh, if you want to go by that, just go look at ANY bird population in the cities and tell me they haven't been domesticated. You can walk right up to a friggin pidgeon in NYC without it thinking twice.

Or heck, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Pigeon#Domestication
Quote:
Rock Pigeons have been domesticated for several thousand years, giving rise to the domestic pigeon (Columba livia domestica).[5] As well as pets, domesticated pigeons are utilised as homing pigeons and carrier pigeons, and so-called war pigeons have served and played important roles during wartimes, with many pigeons having received bravery awards and medals for their services in saving hundreds of human lives: including, notably, the French pigeon Cher Ami who received the Croix de Guerre for his heroic actions during World War I, and the Irish Paddy and the American G.I. Joe, who both received the Dickin Medal, amongst 32 pigeons to receive this medallion, for their gallant and brave actions during World War II.[5] There are numerous breeds of fancy pigeons of all sizes, colours and types.[26]
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...historyid=ab57

Quote:
At much the same period, in Egypt, pigeons are first persuaded to live and breed in the proximity of humans - again as a reliable source of protein. But some 3000 years later it is discovered that they have an extra and unusual talent. Some of them can be trained to fly home.
Welp, it's been fun. Sorry about the derailment, continue on:
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:52 AM Runding is offline  
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#144  

TheMorlock
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"through a process of selection. "

from the first line cupcake


That would be genetic selection

"Background

There is debate within the scientific community over how the process of domestication works. Some researchers give credit to natural selection, where mutations outside of human control make some members of a species more compatible to human cultivation or companionship . Others have shown that carefully controlled selective breeding is responsible for many of the collective changes associated with domestication. These categories are not mutually exclusive and it is likely that natural selection and selective breeding have both played some role in the processes of domestication throughout history"

You are as bad as gibsy
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:01 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Runding
 
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Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
through a process of selection.

from the first line cupcake


That would be genetic selection

Think about it for a sec...

Wait for it...

Wait...

Falcons being bred to hunt... strange idea?
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:03 AM Runding is offline  
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Gibonius
 
What point do you think you're making here? I don't think anybody has said that some birds don't have a long history of domestication. You specifically made the point that cats and dogs are just as wild as any other animal, which is patently false.
Old 02-19-2010, 10:04 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Runding
 
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What point do you think you're making here? I don't think anybody has said that some birds don't have a long history of domestication. You specifically made the point that cats and dogs are just as wild as any other animal, which is patently false.

Lies, we were talking specifically about birds, not every other animal.

kthx
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:07 AM Runding is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
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Lies, we were talking specifically about birds, not every other animal.

kthx

Actually no, parrots were specifically mentioned. With claims they were domesticated when they are clearly not.

And other birds were mentioned as actually being domesticated.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:13 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#149  

Runding
 
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Actually no, parrots were specifically mentioned. With claims they were domesticated when they are clearly not.

And other birds were mentioned as actually being domesticated.

You're right. Birds != Parrots, I messed up by generalizing them together.

Well it was fun, right?!
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:17 AM Runding is offline  
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