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Golf(e)
 
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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
In the US at least a majority do not believe in evolution.



Being indoctrinated into the belief in a higher being does not (necessarily) mean your parents were beating you over the head with the bible as a child. The vast majority of media in the US supports the idea that there is a higher being which is quite a powerful propaganda tool by itself. That you believe (however vaguely) in a God is pretty good evidence that you've been at least somewhat susceptible to such pressures.

Please provide links with proof that the majority of us citizens deny the process of evolution. (you cant because thats not true. people might think we dont come from apes, but only real idiots deny that evolution occurs in nature)

Next, please describe to me in detail the overall detriments that believing in some sort of higher power (not christianity) has on our society and in what ways we'd be better off not thinking this way.

Finally, distinguish for me the differences between what you have and what I have and why one is better than the other-
Me: A belief that there are forms of existence greater than that which humans can understand, and that life continues in some form after physical death, a belief that makes sense to me based on the world ive encountered and a belief that helps me put my experiences into perspective.
You: a belief that no higher forms of existence exist, a belief that makes sense to you based on your experiences and helps you put things into perspective.

What we both have are beliefs, since neither one of us can provide irrefutable evidence to support our claims. You might be inclined to say the burden of proof lies with me, but I say if you cannot explain to me the origins of life and the universe among a host of other fundamental questions, then your guess is as good as mine, and you are a true fool if you think otherwise.

So, why is your belief better than mine and how so?
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:36 PM Golf(e) is offline  
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I agree that Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism and Mormomism are all generally incorrect and cause more turmoil than they calm.

But you have to understand that, this is simply a problem to western religions. Not simply spirituality altogether.

If you go to eastern spiritual philosophy, things begin to get much more grounded.

For example, Tao Te Ching Chapter 1, Line 1:
"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao"

What that means essentially is in the very first line of the book, it straight up explains that everything in this book is not the real deal. And through that line, further imposes, that it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to explain it in a book, and that any book attempting to claim eternity is in essence a lie. The Tao Te Ching right off the bat says that any spiritual text, including itself, is a lie simply by the nature of what it is. So if you read on, understand it by that context.

I find that incredibly noble and respectful of the Tao Te Ching, not a single other spiritual text has said that.

I feel if Christians, Catholics and Mormons were to study the principles of Taoism it would make a radical benefit to them.

But this isn't so much a different between Eastern Philosophy and Western religions, the dichotomy is more intricate, with more reason. The primary difference between Eastern Philosophy and Western religion is that, Western Religion is a metaphorical abstract, whereas Eastern Philosophy emphasizes experience. And that is really what it comes down to, western belief is in fact, belief. Whereas Eastern Philosophy comes from actual experience, it emphasizes direct experience. It REQUIRES direct experience.

This difference is blatantly obvious in the people these different forms of belief manifest. On the Western side it manifests the Christians, the Mormons, who sit in their tight nit communities, closed off to anyone, emphasizing the repetition of words, they are very fearful, they try to push there words on other people, because words are there life, the metaphorical abstracts are there life. You try to argue their metaphorical abstracts, and they become offended, you try to introduce logic into their texts, they become offended, they are very shut off, closed and fearful and have CONSTANT loops of words running in their head, the sins, the do, the don'ts.

Now contrast this to lets say a Buddhist Monastery, Albeit Buddhism is more engrossed in metaphorical abstracts than say Taoism, but the example can still hold. At a monastery, you have a place that is completely open. Anyone, from anywhere in the world can come to it and be seen as equal, anyone from anywhere can join and be accepted. The monks do not repeat lists of words through their head as their primary spiritual act, they do not go down the sins, the prayers, the do and don'ts and engrain them in their head. They instead meditate. Meditation is the act of not thinking, it's an attempt to still the mind and get the words, the metaphorical abstracts out of your mind, so that you can directly experience a state of perfection. So that you can directly feel the divine. And in this direct experience, and because of this direct experience, Buddhists do not become delusional over dogma, because they are constantly ridding their mind of dogma. In this, Buddhists do not become violent, they do not become fearful, because they constantly empty there head of all the metaphorical abstracts that would cause them to do so.

The Mormons, Christians, Catholics and Jews pray, they repeat other peoples words in their head as their primary spiritual act. The Buddhists, Hindus and Taoists meditate. This involves getting the words OUT of their head, both their words and other peoples words.

In essence, Eastern is exactly the opposite of Western in it's practice, and in it's outcomes. Western Emphasizes the consumption of words and metaphorical abstracts, the adherence to metaphorical abstracts. Whereas Eastern emphasizes the getting rid of metaphorical abstracts and words through meditation.

And I think the problem with western religion comes down to exactly that dichotomy. It's not necessarily WHAT they are consuming, but rather its the simple fact that they are consuming. Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1, The Tao that can be Told is not the Eternal Tao. This implies that, any word, any metaphorical abstract, by it's very nature, cannot be the actual thing, as words cannot exist in eternity, and in eternity is where the truth lies, so no word can rest in truth. This means that ANYONE who is consuming words, consuming metaphorical abstracts as truth, is inherently wrong. The problem in Western Religions lay not in the the context of the words they adhere to as absolute truth, but rather, in the simple fact they are adhering to words as the absolute truth.

When a group of people adhere to words as absolute truth this causes problems, because it's not possible for words to be absolute truth. Any group that adheres to words as absolute truth has in a sense retarded itself. They have replaced the real truth, eternity, direct experience of the truth, with an metaphorical abstract, they have in essence disconnected themselves from the truth and are now lost, festering and dying in the prison of their metaphorical abstract.

So yes I would agree that such beliefs are symptoms of a neurological disorder. The more accurate terminology would be Neurosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis this point has actually been made many times by modern philosophers. Terence McKenna has gone on at length about the reasons why the modern 'normal' is actually a form of Neurosis.

On the wiki page, I feel that Jung most accurately summed up the cause of Neurosis in this quote
Quote:
I have frequently seen people become neurotic when they content themselves with inadequate or wrong answers to the questions of life (Jung, [1961] 1989:140).
When proposing Neurosis as the name of the problem, you see, I am not being facetious, but this is quite literally the true psychiatric terminology for the problems that arise out of improper belief systems.

And if you read the wiki page on Neurosis, I find it very interesting how the symptoms of Neurosis are actually all the major problems that our Christian society now faces today en mass.

Quote:
...anxiety, sadness or depression, anger, irritability, mental confusion, low sense of self-worth, etc., behavioral symptoms such as phobic avoidance, vigilance, impulsive and compulsive acts, lethargy, etc., cognitive problems such as unpleasant or disturbing thoughts, repetition of thoughts and obsession, habitual fantasizing, negativity and cynicism, etc. Interpersonally, neurosis involves dependency, aggressiveness, perfectionism, schizoid isolation, socio-culturally inappropriate behaviors, etc.
I have not met a single christian, catholic or mormon that does not suffer from unfounded anxiety, irritability, unfounded phobias or any other symptom listed there. As belief in those religions REQUIRES the creation of one of those disorders in order for the belief system to function.

Neurosis used to be the umbrella term which all those problems existed under. But Neurosis is actually a phased out psychiatric terminology, it is no longer used. And I would assume thats because, psychiatrists began to recognize that majority of the population is suffering from neurosis. They could no longer deal with it as just one word, but it became necessary to break it down into it's separate disorders and categories.

To say western religions cause a neurological disorder is not just a baseless assumption, but at one point, it quite literally was recognized as a disorder with a real name. I believe the only reason the term Neurosis was probably fazed out was because of social implications of having probably roughly 80% of the population held under the category of a psychological disorder.

Now with that all said and done. I am going to progress onto my next point.

If we take it that replacing direct experience of eternity with metaphorical abstracts (religious words) causes Neurosis. Then this problem actually lays in more people than simply the religious. As more groups than simply the religious are replacing direct experience with metaphorical abstract.

You know where the greatest amount of Neurosis exists in our society? Universities. The greatest rates of depression are most centralized at University Systems and education systems. But Universities are not institutions of religion, they are not institutions of spiritual belief, so why is Neurosis appearing there?

Because scientific belief itself is a metaphorical abstract.

The biggest problem of Neurosis caused by metaphorical abstracts does not exist in the Christians, but rather in the Scientific Rational Atheist.

The Scientific Rational Atheists are in essence doing the same exact thing that the Christians, the Jews, Mormons and Catholics are doing. They are replacing direct experience of eternity with metaphorical abstract. Instead of experiencing eternity in Christianity, you rather have Genesis, the story of God's creation. Instead of experiencing eternity as a Scientific Rational Atheist you have Big Bang Theory. Both Western Religions and Scientific Rational Atheism are doing the same thing, replacing direct experience of eternity with metaphorical abstracts. They are BOTH attempting to say that the Eternal Tao can be Told by their metaphorical abstracts. And because of this, both scientific ration atheists and western religions are suffering from Neurosis.

The symptoms of Neurosis affect Scientific Rational Atheists just as much as the Western Religious people. I do not know a single Scientific Rational Atheist that does not posses one symptom of Neurosis. This is because Scientific Rational Atheism is getting rid of direct experience of eternity and instead attempting to make people believe in the repetition of words as absolute truth, just the same as any Western Religion. Scientific Rational Atheists are doing the exact same thing as any Western Religion by this context, only they are using different words.

Instead of, "and God said let there be Light", you have "The Universe sprang from a point of infinite density for no reason at all."

Instead of having a long list of Commandments to deduce that you are more correct than another, you have a long list receptors and chemical bonding sites in the brain to deduce that you are more correct than another.

Instead of creating a hierarchy by judging humans based on their Holiness and purity, you are creating a hierarchy by judging humans through their grades and intelligence tests.

God, Big Bang, Commandments, Receptors, Chemical Bonds, Holiness, Purity, Grades, IQ. These are all metaphorical abstracts. These are all metaphorical abstracts that are attempting to replace direct experience of their said subject matter by the establishments which push them.

The truth is, Scientific Rational Atheism is carrying on all the SAME exact problem of Western Religions, just under new names and new contexts.

You know a common argument of Atheists against Christianity is the things like the Christian Crusades, how violent Christians are, how many people have died in the name of God. But today, look at who is doing the killing, who is draining other cultures today? Scientific Rational Atheists carry on the thirst for war and inquisition just the same. More people have died from the advancements of science than any other establishment in the history of mankind. The beliefs of Scientific Rational Atheism are just another mechanism in the same vain as the Western Inquisition which allows one to justify why they are undoubtedly better than another, and have the right to kill another.

Scientific Rational Atheism is nothing more than the Christian motif evolved, re-arranged and re-worded. Both Scientific Rational Atheism and Christianity are doing the same exact thing in terms of sociological impact around the world and in our country. Scientific Rational Atheists operate in the same sociological structure as Christians, they operate in the same Christian economic structure, they operate in the same Christian family structure, they have the same goals in life as the Christians. And the mechanism by which they indoctrinate people into their mind control system is the EXACT same. They replace direct experience with metaphorical abstracts. Scientific Rational Atheism and Christianity, at their core, are the same thing, just with different metaphorical abstracts used to trap people into their paradigm.

Understand, I do agree that western religions are a form of Neurosis. But you hold no room to speak as a Scientific Rational Atheist. The solution does not lay in consuming MORE metaphorical abstracts, the solution lays in learning how to rid yourself of the metaphorical abstracts.

Last edited by ry_goody; 06-29-2009 at 02:12 PM..
Old 06-29-2009, 01:57 PM ry_goody is offline  
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Actually I'm pretty sure he just believes Israel is in the right (he's wrong). It has nothing to do with a conspiracy theory to destroy the US.

He alone of course isn't going to change the minds of the country, but his ideals and methodology are gaining momentum, and you'll see offshoots and semi-related commentators and people of high power also siding with these ways. It won't be a revolutionary change, but it will definitely be enough for the Jews to further encroach upon and alter this nation. Face it, all the Jews in the media, business, and politics have a single-minded vision of empowering Israel. Bill Maher, while not distinctly Jewish himself, is clearly part of that system.
Old 06-29-2009, 01:59 PM trumpcard is offline  
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I'd say most people are quite private about their religion so why do you give a shit?
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:31 PM matt00926 is offline  
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Regardless a majority of Christians in America do not believe in evolution.

Please cite
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:32 PM Coqui is offline  
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Coqui
 
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I agree that Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism and Mormomism are all generally incorrect and cause more turmoil than they calm.

Why do people separate Catholicism from Christianiy?
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:34 PM Coqui is offline  
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Why do people separate Catholicism from Christianiy?
Because they are as different as Christianity/Catholicism is to Judaism even though they are all based on the same thing.. Ever heard of the little thing called the Reformation?

edit- maybe it should be mainstream protestant and Catholicism. Technically both are Christianity.
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:58 PM joemama is offline  
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Why do people separate Catholicism from Christianiy?

Because many people see Catholicism as a manipulation of Christianity.
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:59 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Because they are as different as Christianity/Catholicism is to Judaism even though they are all based on the same thing.. Ever heard of the little thing called the Reformation?

edit- maybe it should be mainstream protestant and Catholicism. Technically both are Christianity.

Catholics are the original Christians.

Belief in Jesus is the main focus of Christianity.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:05 PM Coqui is offline  
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Because many people see Catholicism as a manipulation of Christianity.

The creation of Catholicism is the only one that's in the Bible (in terms of the Christian religions)

Peter was the first Pope. Upon Peter the formation of Jesus' church took place.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:06 PM Coqui is offline  
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it really isn't though.

I personally have never encountered anything that made me believe there is an active higher power, but believing in it is not far-fetched in anyway shape or form

human beings try to form everything they encounter into meaning, reasons, causes, etc.

The idea of a higher power, an all seeing eye, a father or brother watching over us - all of these can be psychologically explained and philosophically understood (albeit...many throughout the years argued against it, but understood all the same)

i don't agree with it, i think they are mistaken; not insane, but many ignorant.

In the same sense as a child who is taught that the sun rises every morning. they grow up and are then taught that we merely revolve around it; yet they still see it rising every morning, just as it always has. clearly there is proof otherwise, but they chose to rely on faith that it rises.
I don't really see anything here that would make me believe it isn't a far fetched idea. There may be a common psychological impetus (I do not accept this view) that lends itself to believing in God but this doesn't make it a realistic idea. All you've said here is that a lot of people believe it and there are explanations for why they believe it but that doesn't make their opinion any more realistic.
Old 06-29-2009, 03:09 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Because they are as different as Christianity/Catholicism is to Judaism even though they are all based on the same thing.. Ever heard of the little thing called the Reformation?.

This is way off.

Catholicism and Protestantism are incredibly similiar. They all have the same core beliefs.

The reformation was brought about due to corruption in the higher ups of the Catholic leadership. Plain and simple. Martin Luther never inteded to create a new religion. Ever notice that Lutheran and Episcapalian (or however it's spelt) are considered as "Catholic light" Then Anglican Christianity formed from the desire to allow divorce.

The core beliefs of Christianity are the same among all of them. Jews don't believe in Jesus as being the Messiah so they are not based even remotely on the same core beliefs.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:12 PM Coqui is offline  
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Please provide links with proof that the majority of us citizens deny the process of evolution. (you cant because thats not true. people might think we dont come from apes, but only real idiots deny that evolution occurs in nature)
You're right an outright majority do not reject every element of evolution. As much as two thrids of the population might accept that evolution does occur to some degree. However much of this belief is restricted to things like "micro-evolution" and a majority reject evolution entirely when it comes to beliefs about human evolution. Whether the majority rejects or accepts evolution then comes down to semantics about whether rejecting large portions of the theory of evolution means you can still say people accept the theory of evolution (In my opinion no).

http://richarddawkins.net/article,70...Shinji-Okamoto
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

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Next, please describe to me in detail the overall detriments that believing in some sort of higher power (not christianity) has on our society and in what ways we'd be better off not thinking this way.
It allows people to justify or rationalize immoral actions or apathy. Yes they can do so without religion but that doesn't excuse religion, it would still be quite useful to remove a major facilitator of such actions from society. It creates unnecessary divisions among society for virtually no reason. It's a powerful form of social control that can amplify many times the influence of immoral leaders and their opinions. There really isn't any benefit to it that a secular organization couldn't fulfill without many of the downsides that religion imposes so I see no reason to keep it around.

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Finally, distinguish for me the differences between what you have and what I have and why one is better than the other-
Me: A belief that there are forms of existence greater than that which humans can understand, and that life continues in some form after physical death, a belief that makes sense to me based on the world ive encountered and a belief that helps me put my experiences into perspective.
You: a belief that no higher forms of existence exist, a belief that makes sense to you based on your experiences and helps you put things into perspective.

What we both have are beliefs, since neither one of us can provide irrefutable evidence to support our claims. You might be inclined to say the burden of proof lies with me, but I say if you cannot explain to me the origins of life and the universe among a host of other fundamental questions, then your guess is as good as mine, and you are a true fool if you think otherwise.

So, why is your belief better than mine and how so?
Your belief is based on wishful thinking instead of reason and potentially allows you to justify actions outside of a secular moral system.

Last edited by Patriotic Eagle; 06-29-2009 at 03:44 PM..
Old 06-29-2009, 03:39 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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He alone of course isn't going to change the minds of the country, but his ideals and methodology are gaining momentum, and you'll see offshoots and semi-related commentators and people of high power also siding with these ways. It won't be a revolutionary change, but it will definitely be enough for the Jews to further encroach upon and alter this nation. Face it, all the Jews in the media, business, and politics have a single-minded vision of empowering Israel. Bill Maher, while not distinctly Jewish himself, is clearly part of that system.
Support for Israel is already the dominant ideology in this country, Maher is just repeating the mainstream viewpoints. There are also many jews who oppose Israels actions with regards to the Palestinians. They don't have a hive mind and I've never met anyone who wasn't a racist who believed they did.
Old 06-29-2009, 03:41 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Why do people separate Catholicism from Christianiy?

I say both of them in case someone might think I'm not reffering to catholics too when I say Christian.
Old 06-29-2009, 03:44 PM ry_goody is offline  
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